Update: Minny Turns down Houston’s offer for 4. First rounders

Are we in the compete now mode? Yes

Is Butler an upgrade over Gordon? Absolutely.

Seems pretty obvious what we should do.

 

Any other players else unhappy?

4 Picks + Gordon + BRandon + Criss ==> Butler + Rose?

Rocket River

 

Bulls would be more than happy to do it, 2 seasons ago.

 

Tyus Jones

 

Meh. It’s not that simple. Not saying they wouldn’t pull the trigger, but our bench would be so thin, and assuming draft picks are gone we would have no way of improving it through trades.

I think we would continue to struggle moving forward if we replaced EG with Butler

EDIT: simply put we’re just a mess right now and the whole idea of let’s gather as much talent as possible and they’ll figure it out has us looking like we could miss the playoffs

 

Scary! from best team to lottery team.

 

I mean, if we end up putting out there this main rotation:

Capela/Hartenstein
PJ/Melo
Butler/Ennis
Harden/Green
Paul

...and we would still suck, it means something else needs to change cause the problem obviously wouldn't be lack of talent or a bad constructed roster.

Even though, i admit this bench doesn't exactly look great, but we have still the MLE to play with in the buyout market, i guess we'll try to get a center or a wing, especially if Melo or Ennis are not going to be good enough. Hartenstein will get better imo, but he needs time, probably too much to be ready for the playoffs in this season.

 

Woj & Lowe:

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=25119658

ZL: Don't care how you protect those picks, that is enormously risky.

[...]

CAVS/KEVIN LOVE

ZL: They signed Kevin Love to an extension to trade him. I would expect those discussions, that they will begin searching out a market. Is it too early for those discussions? Is he movable at those numbers I quoted?

Woj: We've been doing this for years. What is Kevin Love's trade value? In Minnesota, Golden State was deciding do we want to move Klay? There were people who wanted to do it. They just hired Steve Kerr. Steve wanted to coach Steph & Klay together, I won't upset this. That was a factor. From there going to Cleveland, they got kinda close in the Paul George discussions. Now, he's under contract at that number. I think it is too soon. It is probably inevitable? Yeah. Could Kevin Love bring you back young players & picks? It may be one. I don't know you're getting both. It's hard to get both for anyone anymore.

ZL: I think I predicted in my crazy predictions column that they trade him or try to. I'm almost surprised at how strong the consensus is that he's borderline untradeable at that number. He's good. You can make fun of his defense. He held up in the Finals better than he's gotten credit for. You just can't underestimate what a desperate & wounded team would do. Washington, Charlotte, ... I had someone at the Nets game float 'Would Utah take Kevin Love?' No, Utah is not taking that money on their books. That is a no. Portland? That's a popular one.

Woj: Phoenix in the past has tried.

ZL: Can't rule out Phoenix but I just don't see it.

Woj: Let's say we're in July and teams with space with big dreams get shut out. OK, do we take him into space? The money is a big number & league has changed around him. When healthy, he has contributed to winning. I don't mean to downgrade him. It's a matter of where does he fit? What would you give up? Could Cleveland get back enough that it makes sense to do it?

ZL: I've had guys on other teams tell me they may have to attach assets to get off of him. I don't think so. That won't be the case. Would you have to take on something unpleasant to get an asset? Take on Bismack Biyombo to get Charlotte's lottery protected pick? Maybe. If he plays well & stays healthy, I think he'll be movable at a neutral level. Most disagree with that. I don't know who the team will be.

[...]

WIZARDS DRAMA

ZL: Here we are with the Wizards again. Here comes Dwight. It took 5 games for them to begin sniping publicly at each other. If I have one regret, it's that I chickened out on Washington misses the playoffs prediction. I just don't like this team.

Woj: Washington is like Minnesota in this way: we know chemistry is screwed up, we know they don't like each other but they've gotten through it in other seasons & there's too much talent to bottom out. Then the season starts and you go, this can't go on any longer.

ZL: They need a come to Jesus moment now. Any buzz on Scott Brooks?

Woj: It was a 5 years, $35M deal (for Brooks). Brooks' $7M/year became a benchmark in negotiations for coaches. You never say never but in most parts, Ted Leonsis has had patience with people in Washington. No one can keep taking on water like that, no matter the coach or management. You have to stabilize. If this keeps happening, if might feel different in 10 days or 2 weeks. You can't keep going like this but so far it has.

ZL: If Scott Brooks is safe, what can happen? They're trapped. They have 3 guys who will make nearly combined $100M. I don't know what they can do.

Woj: Who would you get back more for, which guard?

ZL: Beal & it's not even close.

Woj: Would that have been true last year or year before?

ZL: When Wall signed the super max, that became true. Teams should be sniffing around Beal now, talking illegally to his agent, talking to the Wizards. If this thing breaks apart, Wall's value is at an all-time low. There are questions about his knee & conditioning. Porter is fine. A little overpaid. Beal is really good & on a contract that is fair at a position of high value.

Woj: If Oubre really developed after Otto, you would have thought Otto & one other good young player could have brought them back a 3rd star. Hypothetically, Jimmy Butler.

ZL: They should be trying to get Butler. I actually thought they would.

Woj: You would have thought your 3rd guy and a pretty good 4th gets you a star. Like with Kawhi, that was the formula they hoped and it didn't really get them in the conversation with San Antonio. If you get a 3rd guy who could maybe help solidify the two of them,... that I think hasn't helped Washington's ability to impact this roster.

ZL: They are an interesting study of team building. They can't pay Oubre. If you take a look at all their transactions since taking John Wall number one, it's kinda like death by a thousand cuts. Ian Mahinmi's contract is terrible. They missed on Jan Vesley. They trade the 18th pick for Marcin Gortat. They trade the 13th pick for Markieff Morris. They trade the 22nd pick for Bogdanovic & dumped Andrew Nicholson. All of these moves individually, no harm no foul but all the picks out the door & cap space used, now you arrive at this spot.

Woj: Some mistakes have come...when free agency has emptied out & this is who's left. Detroit signs Jon Leuer, they pay Nicholson. They sign Mahinmi. They came close to signing Luol Deng(3 years, $50M). That's when the Lakers went to 4 years.

ZL: Summer on '16, a lot of teams signed bad contracts. Otto Porter, it's an OK contract. Part of that is bad luck. They took it to RFA and ran into a GM who made sure they paid through the nose. Some of it is bad luck.

Woj: RFA is the unexplored territory, the place no one wants to be. Teams don't want to be in it, players don't want to be in it, agents don't want to be in it. It brings out the worst in everyone. People are angry with each other. When it's your own guy, he can't get an offer sheet, you know he can't & you won't bid against yourself. "Why not just give me this & we can get a deal done!" Well because no one else is giving you that & I'll get you for less. How hard do you want to grind a guy? This summer will be interesting. It's a nasty endeavor.

ZL: They should be, on raw talent, it's the East. You cannot miss the playoffs.

[...]

 

JIMMY BUTLER

ZL: Latest on Jimmy Butler? Anything cooking?

Woj: With Minnesota, it's...some teams believe Minnesota is really sincere in trying to get a deal done. Others feel it's a shell game at times. The worse it goes, like if they were playing well & it's working, that loss to Milwaukee, that environment...the fact they're not winning, not playing well, getting booed every night at home, I think that more than anything will speed up a conclusion to this. The case that Tom Thibodeau or Scott Layden can make to the owner that if we're patient, we're playing well, we have time when it's going as bad as it is, that more than anything speeds up this trade process. I don't think this will last until like..I'd be shocked if he was there at Thanksgiving. It feels like it'll be sooner. You got other teams, as it's not going well for others & pressure mounts in other places, you start to see agendas sorta align. I do think the way it's gone there is speeding this up more. That'll impact the offers they're willing to accept, that'll impact the offers that are coming in. Things need to start happening in the league and all the sudden that guy the team wouldn't put in, alright we'll put him in or we'll lower protections on that. That stuff starts to churn everyday and like a magnet, something gets closer.

ZL: Not just Heat or bust?

Woj: Absolutely others. Plenty of others. History says someone will come out of nowhere. Someone could come out of nowhere. Usually somebody does.

ZL: Houston offer still exist or did it getting out there impact the Rockets willingness?

Woj: I don't believe so. The four picks is a sliding scale of..."It's four picks if it's two players you don't want. Maybe it's 3 or 2 picks based on who else would be in the deal." It's a sliding scale. Houston wants to find a way to get him.

ZL: Assume the offer is real. Haven't heard otherwise. I agree with you, like if you want Gordon, it goes down to 3. If you take these guys we don't want, maybe it's four. If it's four, I'd be so curious to see protections on the last two. They're all in. Daryl Morey has earned benefit of the doubt. They know it's a risk and feel it's a risk they should take.

Woj: Difference with the Nets 1) They were trading for players in their mid-late 30s. 2) Butler is 29. And it wasn't that the Nets gave up three picks, they had swapping of picks.

ZL: League has talked about banning but has not banned.

Woj: They had a Joe Johnson swap in there too with Atlanta. It felt like when you go from having a lottery pick to into the 20s, along with trading the picks, felt like they didn't have picks for 6 years. This would be different but four is a lot.

ZL: Four is a lot unless you protect them in such a way making them not valuable. Like 2025, they can do something like top 10 protected and if we're one of the ten worst teams, it immediately becomes two seconds. If you're Minnesota, where that number is, top ten, top whatever, becomes the only factor in deciding whether that's a valuable pick or not. Houston won't mess around with unprotected picks that out into the future. I don't care if Harden is on your team, if Harden & Butler are on your team, an unprotected 2025 pick out the door with other picks out the door before it is a massive, massive risk and just not gonna happen. They're not gonna trade an unprotected 2025 pick. I just hope it's over. I'm tired of it.

Woj: If there was ever a time in our country or society not to give a damn about 2025, this is probably it. What will it matter? Probably a whole 'nother podcast.

ZL: Pat Riley doesn't care about the 2021 pick he owes Phoenix. Tom Thibodeau wouldn't care. We'll either retire in Riley's case or be fired.

Woj: Glen Taylor, I don't know he'll own the team then. I do think it impacts what you can sell it for. Not saying he doesn't care. Fertitta in Houston will probably own the Rockets longer than Glen will own the Wolves. That's a factor.

 

"Woj: If there was ever a time in our country or society not to give a damn about 2025, this is probably it. What will it matter? Probably a whole 'nother podcast."

what the...I didn't think that Woj was such a nihilist.

 

can we get dmo?
hes not a world beater but i am thinking he would be better than hartenstein and melo

 

Pretty tough week of games coming up. They could be 2-8 by Sunday (Minnesota, not Houston, hopefully).
Next six: Lakers/Utah/Warriors/Blazers/Clippers/Lakers

 

Well the guy who just got elected in Brazil is going to deforest the Amazon which will accelerate global warming. So...

 

The world is burning around us. give them all the picks before the end.

 

You just need to embrace Hartenstein aka the new D.Mo

 

no way Morey offers up 4 picks with no protections

 

I hope Hartenstein lives up to that expectation. That would make him a viable NBA rotation piece vs. what he is now, GLeague average player.

 

Same here, i personally like his potential, obviously he's still very young and needs time to adjust to the NBA, after all it took around 3/4 years to D.Mo to become really playable so, we'll see, hopefully he'll get there sooner than that.

 

Time for Dwight to head to a China