It's crazy, I had no clue this Northside/Southside Sino-rivalry even existed. And today I think in the Hangout in the OCP thread there's some jawing going on between Northern Punjabi Indians and the Southern Indian crew. It seems like the bbs is riven with Inter-sectional asian strife; what next? Hokkaido Japanese vs. Okinawans? Tongans vs. Samoans? Stay tuned.
LOL, they serious about this kinda stuff in China. Were it not for the fact the Commies ran China right after World War 2, they woulda done a Soviet Union-like breakup. These guys really dislike each other
Please don't throw the "5000 years of culture" around so conveniently. The two examples you listed - burned to death and blocking machine guns - to illustrate collectivism are from communistic propaganda, you know, the story of Qiu Shao Yun and Huang Xu Guan, two Chi-con soldiers. At most, they are examples for communist culture, not necessarily the original Chinese culture. The Chinese culture has changed a lot in the last three thousand years. I'll provide a primer to show the changes. Two thousand years ago, at around the same time of Plato, the Chinese culture is dominated by Confucianism, Taoism and Moism, with some other influence of Legalism etc... In the following a thousand years, Moism went down hill, Legalism became the hidden ideology for the rulers, Taoism and Confucianism had taken turns in prominence in the mainstream until Buddhism penetrated the Chinese society in the Shui and the Tang Dynasty. At first Confucianists ideologically confronted Buddhism, resulting in the Neo Confucianism in the following Song, Yuan and Ming Dynasty. In the Qing Dynasty, trend shifted to the movement of Confucianists incorporating, openly, Buddhism tenets into their thoughts. After the collapse of Qing Dynasty in that last century, communism eventually swept the country in turmoil, leading to the China we see today. China has changed and is always changing, in the long river of Chinese culture if something is to stay it needs to last hundreds of years. Communism is too young for that. Case in point, the most well known hero in Chinese culture is typically a loser, that's right, a loser, which is in stark contrast to the Western view on heroes. For example, Guan Yu, a general who lived in about 1500 years ago who is still worshipped by Chinese, is remembered for his benevolence and loyalty. His ending is to be captured and beheaded by the enemy. Yue Fei, the most well known ancient general in the Song Dynasty, was executed by the emperor by agitation of internal spies, along with conflict in interests. Yue Fei is remembered by Chinese for his decidedly patriotism - he's dedicated his whole life without reserve to recover half of China taken by nomads. Prior to the communism infiltration, Chinese idea on hero is not about individualism vs. collectivism, it's also less about results, but what a man has shown in the process of pursuit. Strength in character is what Chinese culture embodies. Winners are also embraced, but to a lesser extent. Wen Tian Xiang, the minister of the last regime of Southern Song Dynasty, was another loser who was captured after the total collapse of Song and eventually killed by the Mongolians, who were to take over the whole China and establish the Yuan Dynasty. Wen is another national hero because he sat in a dirty cell for three years waiting to be executed. He refused to surrender and become a high rank Mongolian officer for the Yuan Dynasty, even though all he had to do was to nod and accept the temptations the Mongolians offered. Power, money, women were under his nose but he chose to sat indefinitely for his death sentence. There is no buddies, there is no team, there's no collectivism. When someone is captured waiting alone to die in the cell, with no chance whatsoever to succeed, it's purely one against the world for his belief, with his will. At last the Mongolians lost their patience and chopped off his head, but even they acknowledged he was a real man. Minister Wen, along with Guan Yu and Yue Fei, are the household names in China till this day. Their stories will give people a better grasp on the real Chinese culture. For this reason I disagree with that there is no individualistic heroism in Chinese culture, to the contrary there is and it's manifested in a different way from the Western¡¯s winner idolism. It¡¯s not so much about results as it¡¯s about strength in character. The communists want collectivism to sweep China, for it is a fact the government is always a beneficiary when an individual sacrifices for the good of public. The real Chinese culture shouldn't be obscured from communistic influence, especially when such influence, although still strong, is gradually fading.
I doubt you have any idea about Chinese culture yourself. Chinese DON'T worship losers. Guan Yu was a BIG winner before he got so full of himself. Yue Fei always was a winner, unless you count being murdered by your own government's corrupt official to prevent you from defeating enemy nations a loser. Wen Tian Xian did all he could to save the same pathetic dynasty. Well the fallen hero stories certainly has their appeal, all these three are NOT respected because they lost, but because of their ABILITY, LOYALTY, INTEGRITY, did I say ABILITY, INTELLIGENCE and in Wen's case, a very famous poem. Being a loser is NOT a Chinese trait or a dictator like Mao wouldn't receive so much popularity. As for Yao, he's not a loser because he's Chinese (because China doesn't try to breed losers). He's a loser because he's a southern Chinese.
Don't just twist his words and claim something false. He never said Chinese worship losers. In fact, what he said was Chinese worship those real heros, who showed their decency and loyalty especially in difficult times. The end results aren't really concerned in traditional Chinese culture, which is not really different than Western culture. Ever heard of, it's ok to lose, more importantly, it's how you lose it? Yes, they succeeded before, but on the end they lost. However, they are still heros to Chinese people, coz they all defended something very important, as you said, integrity, although they are tragedy heros, and "losers" in modern term. If you have ever learned some history, I mean real Chinese history, you will know that it's totally different than communist propaganda. The famous or infamous quote from Deng Xiaoping, no matter white cat or black cat, if it can catch a rat, it's a good cat. People just pursue success or own benefit, no matter what means are applied. That's why it's so corrupted now, that's why those on top of the Forbes all ended up in jail. It's safe to say, that what we have now, are far away from Chinese culture. Please go back to your post attacking fellow Chinese, where is the once valued so highly integrity? Mind you, talking about misconception of Chinese people, don't you think the message you sent does far more harm to the reputation of Chinese people than a weak rebounder? Speaking of toughness, ranting and taunting aren't toughness. To have the courage and persistance to stand up and defend something valuable and important, is toughness, especially facing hardships. For more than 1000 years, every time there was invasion, those self-claimed tough people in Northern gave in and cooperated, without a single exception. Be it Jin, Mongolians, Qing, Nationalists, Communists, Russian, Japanese, not a single time, they fought. At the time of Japanese invasion, 300 thousands best equipped army facing 50K Japanese army, retreated and gave up the 3 Northern provinces without firing a single shot! Talking of shame and embarrassment, that is shame. Meanwhile, those weak "p***y" Southern Chinese actually fought, and for most of the time, the land were not occupied. That's why all the massacres occurred in Southern China, as retaliation. Those are all history, but it helps us learn something from the past. Human decency is far more important than a "tough" image. Before you are worried about reputation of Chinese people, reputation of Southern Chinese people, try to be a decent man in life at first, everything else will fall in place. If we all try hard to be a good person at first, Chinese will be more popular, and comparing to that, timid playing of Yao does not matter at all. Speaking of culture misconception, don't Chinese youth mistake WWE as Western culture? Actually, human beings are all the same. Look at their history and literature, you will find out that they value humanity, integrity, and loyalty as much as we do. I really hate to turn such a nice thread into culture debate between Chinese people. My apology to all the users on this bbs. But I really don't want them to have misconception. I just don't get it, what's so wrong with being humble? Everytime, someone brought up that humbleness is one of the Chinese tradition. Some will jump out and act defensively and tell people, no, you are wrong, we were like that before, but now we are just aggressive bunch. Are we at a point, where we don't even know what's right or wrong?
I don't know Chinese history? You are one to lecture ME about Chinese history? I mean, never mind the fact that the Jin are actually ethnic northern Chinese (as were the Liao, Jurchen, Qidan, etc). Never mind the fact that the Jin were only successful because a pathetic Song dynasty. Hey, on top of that, never mind that Xiangyang held the Mongolians at bay for 10 years and the northerners killed the Grand Khan and after the fall of northern China it went all down hill from there. And northern army didn't fire a single shot against the Japs, gee, could it be that they were ordered not to and Chiang Kai Shek ordered those that fought to be massacred? Funny how you forgot that a general named Zhang Xueliang was the one that captured Chiang and force him to fight the Japs. Incidently I heard that this famous general is a northerner. Shocking huh? Not to mention if you know jack about Chinese history you'd know most of the troops that defended cities like Shanghai in the south were RETREATED NORTHERN ARMIES. So yeah, go ahead and tell me what the southerners did in WWII. The most famous of them (being Chiang) bent backwards and let himself get raped up the ass while the people of the country are being slaughtered. Even your pathetic attempt to show how the northerners lost fights against foreign invasion shows your ignorance in history. Being in its geographical position, ALL the invasions ever on China CAME FROM THE NORTH. Yet you chose to pick the instances where they failed instead of the hundreds of instances where they won. Hell, name one incursion to China that started from the south. I can think of one: the Opium Wars. How did that turn out? Payment of 30 million teals of silver + Hong Kong to the Brits. You should talk.
It's so predictable. I knew you would use Chiang as excuse. Mind you, first, Chiang was never in full control of the country; second, as the biggest war lord with best equipped army, most manpowers in China at the time, possessing 6:1 ratio in army comparing to invaders, without firing a single shot, gave up own lands (those were occupied by him), due to an empty order from someone else? don't you think that excuse was so lame? But he had the guts to kidnapp own command in chief in the middle of the war to force him to fight later on? LOL, talking about brain wash and ignorance. Yeah, you want the real reason? He just cared about his army, not the people, not the land, much less to do with order. If you want to fight with army from other war lords? hey, I am all for it, but with my men? nope. Third, Chiang ordered those who fought would be killed? where did you get this ridiculous story? Against the strongest war lord? who's going to deliver the execusion? It's so simple to put out excuses and blame others. Winning a battle is not winning a war. You don't need to give me thousands of examples, just name one, one single war they won in Northern. You want to talk about Opium War, fine, let's talk about it. It started from South, ended in North, where the government gave in, while the Southern were still fighting, none, none of the province was fully occupied at the time, mind you. You want to talk about WWII? Fine, let's talk about it. The real resistance started from the battle in Shanghai, at the time, Northern were already cooperative and setting up districts and local offices under the command of Japanese. At the same time, Manchuria was founded with the support of Japanese. Yeah, That's really tough. The Southern army fought not only in China, but also in South East asia, along side the Britains, till the final victory day. Yes, I did ask you to look up history, not just the propaganda version, but the real history. You chose those wars to show your toughness, it's not helping your cause. As a Chinese, I am not proud of that period of history, no matter I was born in South or North; if you feel proud of it, so be it, which raise the question, whether that Manchuria is what you really missing and made you the urge to diss people from South, and tried so hard to differentiate yourself from them. I am done with this thread, before I made it even worse. Now you can have last word, to show your toughness, and your twist of history.
Actually, that's what most N & S people think about each other. With the thread getting into this long ugly domestic war, I rest my case.
wow...this got ugly in a hurry. i have to agree that there are players like TD, Robinson, Hakeem, etc that are well-respected on and off the court. they are genuie class acts, rarely show-boat, not in basketball for a popularity contest, yet they were hungry for wins and were very determined. that is the kind of person i would like to see Yao become. i realize filling hakeem's shoes is probably not possible (we enjoyed the years while it lasted), but striving for that perfection of basketball skills and IQ and maintaining a class act role in society is attainable. as for offending asians? i didn't feel that way at all. i am chinese and born here in Houston and honestly, it gave me more insight to what i've been told about my heritage. in a general, cultural sense, much of it is true and i didn't see anything wrong with it. yes, they are general statements about a culture, so it doesn't necessarily mean that EVERY chinese person is like that but that is the background. the way you deal with your cultural upbringings is up to the individual. it's like your siblings, if you are all raised by the same parents, traditions, rules, etc. why do you end up so different from them? you ultimately are who you are. thank you for your insight bulk.
Just shut up with your bs. Brainwashed propaganda? I mean, I'm only a history major. What are you? Which troops did Chiang ordered to have killed? Well, how about the New 4th, commander Ye Ting who rotted in jail and eventually was killed, just for starters. How about the defenders of Shanghai, who refused to abandon their positions so Chiang cut off their supplies and when they retreated, he sent them to the south and when they rioted, well, nobody ever heard from them again. See what the problem is? You are too stupid and ignorant to know it happened and can't come up with anything better than "communist propaganda." Hey, while we are talking about communist propaganda, why don't we talk about Chiang's so called "trading space with time" strategy. I love how that worked out. Northerners didn't fire a single shot? Yeah, I'm sure that's what happened at Lugouqiao, aka Marco Polo Bridge on the outskirts of Beijing. I mean hey, the commander only said "rather be a ghost of battle death, instead of a occupied slave" and led his troops to fight (and eventually died). But hey, it must be communist propaganda right? Never mind the fact that they actually have photographs from the battle. Hmmmm, I wonder what Chiang did at the time... A single war in which they won in the north? Getting stupid aren't you? How many times has China fought with the Jap alone? 5. How many times did they lose? 1, with another one (WWII) with mixed results. By my count that ALONE means they won 3 wars with JAPAN ONLY up in the north. Which other wars did they wiin? Maybe Gaojuli (a multi-ethnic dynasty). How about Tang and Han victory against the Xongnu in the northwest? How about the defeat of the Russians by the pathetic Qing dynasty. There are as I've said already, far more examples than your thick skull can remember. Go ahead, tell me how the northerners never won a war. Yeah, tell me about the Opium War, where the southerners got whipped by about 3500 Brits. And I know you didn't insinuate moronic manchurians as indicative of northerners? Tell me how the northerners didn't fight. Let's see, YiHeTuan (who are nothing more than civilians) along with defenders of the city in Tianjin killed about 800 British marines, which is more than all you southerners added together. If China was not stuck with a hogwash manchurian dynasty, the Brits would never have won. Cooperatives in the north to the Japs? Yeah I'm sure the northern population was waving their arms in support of the Japs. Hey, I mean those communist spies embedded in Jap territory sure had no balls.
I have to break my own words, coz I can't stand someone claims to be history major, twisting history facts by throwing out half-truth and messed up person and time frames, to confuse people. NO single shot fired, I was talking about the "tough" North-East-Army, led by the "tough" Gerneral Zhang! General Ye wasn't part of that army, he was actually part of the Southern Army. You said if Zhang disobeyed the order, their troops will be massacred. I asked you to give me a single name in that army, who fired a shot, and who was killed by disobeying "order" and fighting Japanese. You can't, because there is NONE! I was talking about resistance against invasion. War won against invasion! Japanese invaded us once! the war in Korean wasn't a war against invasion. The war in Han dynasty? You did read that I said for the past 1000 years, right? How far away was Han dynasty?! You can call me stupid and ignorant all you want, but you don't have the decency to be a scholar by being history major, rather twisting historical facts, with messed up logic and timeframes, to confuse other people, and serve your shallow shameless attack on fellow Chinese. Speaking of waving flags to invaders? Go back to check out those historical documentary films, you will see what you want to see. That's history on the tape, and it can't be twisted! I know full well that you are clear about your flaw in logic, and wrong timeframe or reference in your examples, becaue as you said, you are history major! But to justify your dirty attack on Southern Chinese people, you chose to twist them hard. Can you justify your own consciousness?!
There was William Wallace, there was Joan of Arc. North or South, man or woman, say nothing about human character. But you all are passionate folks with knowledge of history. I love you all.
Is this the debate and discussion forum? Are these the red states vs blue states debates? I could swear I was reading Giddy vs Andy here
I know I will sound very ignorant by saying this...I have always thought Shanghai is in northern China and Yao is a northern Chinese. For some reasons I always have the idea that all southern Chinese speak Cantonese and northern Chinese speak Mandarin. Looks like I was wrong here. Now I know Shanghai is actually in southern China ...
You know what? I'm embarrassed to admit that I thought the same which is why this thread was puzzling. I thought it looked close enough on the map to be Northern, or at least Central. But I guess it works both ways, Virginia is much closer geographically to New York than Texas or Louisiana, but it is a totally southern state, culturally.
