Understanding How Modern Liberals Think

Except you have to consider the flip side, If abortion was so wrong why do people still have them?"

You're entitled to your belief that life begins at conception and we will never change each other's view on when life begins. Why not then though instead of focusing on a legal ban address the base issues of why women have abortions to begin with?

Why not push for more sex education, more access to contraceptives, more support for pre-natal and post natal care?

 

What? I can be at the golf course and do all the work I would do at the office.

Individuals making their own choices is freedom
Freedom is chaos
Chaos (entropy) always increases over the long run

 

Look you all are losers for engaging in this debate. By that I mean nobody can win. There is simply no winning an abortion argument because all outcomes are wrong. Abortion is terrible. I agree with giddy that it is taking a life (I won't say murder but life is snuffed out). I do not like that people have abortions. Of course I do not like that nature creates way more abortions than humans, either. I don't like cute games of trying to nit pick about when there is a "life" and when there is a "not life" and think it is a stupid argument.

But banning abortion is stupid and not a solution. Legalizing abortion is not a solution. I think we have to move beyond abortion and for that we have to have major, strong changes in society and education and all sorts of other things that will probably never happen.

We cannot overwhelm the system further with more unwanted babies that have no chance (or at least greatly reduced, magnified by huge amounts when you get to minority, born drug-addicted, deformations, mental and physical handicaps, etc) of being adopted. The State does a terrible job taking care of children. And mentally ill. And disabled.

So, yeah, I hate you all for repeatedly bringing this up and now making me feel compelled to write this before I go to work on an otherwise fine Thursday morning. For shame - what about the me?!?! Think of the me!!!

 

Why the need to politicize this issue? Someone is assigned to take care of this problem: the mother, the father and perhaps their families. Beyond that adoption is an abundant option.

The biggest consequence of outlawing abortion is that the parents of that child (mother in particular due to biology) have to become responsible for what they've created.

 

People do the wrong things with great regularity; most of those, however, don't sacrifice another life as does abortion.

Focusing on things such as education, contraception and natal care are good and true options but they won't save the children destined to be aborted.

All these things are fine but at their base they require others to "step up" and not the actual adults involved. I'm all for supportive solutions but the central players need to do their part first.

 

That doesn't answer the question.

Except if others aren't willing to help out to begin with why should the "central players" have any incentive to step up?

 

Why the need then for a legal ban if the issue can be addressed through other means?

I agree we will never convince each other whether abortion is right or wrong but you are politicizing it as much as the other side.

 

1. Yes it does answer the question. People are destined to do things that aren't in their best interest. We don't have to stand by and see another life sacrificed in their pursuit. If an unwanted pregnancy occurs, we don't make it better by killing the baby. In fact, we've compounded the problem.

"Central players" have primary responsibility-- not the rest of us! Do you always put the cart before the horse?

 

Yes, I do disparage these people, because they run around and take something complex and try to dilute it through appeal to the weakest line of argumentation there is; emotional appeals to conscience. We all have difference consciences. Perhaps I regard your (and the average American's) over-consumption of meat as being excessively wasteful, and contributory to the starvation of thousands and decidely "anti-life". However, instead of creating an entire premise based on the fact that "I don't eat industrially processed meat, so you shouldn't either, because it's WRONG, and it should FEEL wrong.", I look up empirical facts like how much grain and water it takes to make a pound of beef and etc.

It is telling how you fixate on moralizing this whole thing, up to the point where you imply that by inserting complexities into the issue, I am trying to deceive. Really, what you should do, is come up with solid reasons why the government should intervene in something so tangential to the national intrest. "It feeling wrong", I'm going to guess, is not going to fly in the Supreme Court.

If you want it simple, I can give it to you simple. Legalized abortion is the law of the land. To change that, you're going to have a hell of a better argument than you do now.

 

What are these other means that are going to save innocent lives?

I'm talking about legalizing not politicizing. I was "objecting" to slandering the argument by using the describer "conservative!" :grin:

 

Try again (unless you want to argue fetuses are an ethnic group).

 

And I was silly enough to think that this thread was about how "modern" liberals think. Not hardly. It's simply another ****ing thread about abortion. Thanks so much, giddy, for yet another derail. I'm sure you are quite proud of yourself.

 

To be fair, the original topic wasn't so hot to begin with.

 

I'll give it back: it wasn't always that way. As I pointed out, slavery was once legal. Does that make owning slave okay in your book... then or now?

Your desire for the procedure is what complicates it: you have to find a definition for life that, you hope, will satisfy fence-sitting critics while allowing abortion. That right there acknowledges the shallowness of the argument. You have to define the baby into a meaningless clump of cells before aborting it.

In reality, that is counter-intuitive of all natural human behavior about pregnancy.

 

If you're pissed, I guess I should feel happy... :grin:

Not sure why you target me and me alone. That's weird, not.

 

Abortion was once legal too. In fact, in the English common law tradition, even up to the 1800s, there were no legal penalities associated with it.

There is nothing "natural" about abortion laws. Stop switching the fences to fixate on the right and wrong of abortion.

In answer to your first point, I must again say that slavery is outlawed because our ethics have evolved from the 1800s to now. Will they continue to evolve? Perhaps. I have a tendency to believe they will evolve forwards rather than backwards, but this is a moot point until it is applicable to solid action regarding the law.

 

....and not all so-called progress is bad. In fact, very few things are completely good or completely bad.

 

I never watched the video in the OP. My interest was in the topic raised by the title of the thread. How do modern liberals think? I thought it a topic worth discussing. But, of course, it devolved into another abortion thread, and we have had a large number of them over the years. Now, this is simply one more, thanks to giddy, who apparently can't help himself.

Giddy, if you want to discuss your obsession, why not start a thread about it? It could be added to the already long list of abortion threads. No chance, right? Thank you so much.