Perhaps we should let the Ukranians decide if they want to fight to keep their nation or if they want to be a third world vassal state of Russian and Putin.
@Nook’s last point is sooo incredibly important to not forget. Keep in mind that like half of the top military equipment is manufactured here in the US even in red states like Alabama. If Europe is at war even with the US on the sidelines, the US is STILL a target much like Pearl Harbor was a major target because destroying manufacturing is typically the top objective of attacks. Of course the US could ban NATO country sales by Lockheed, Raytheon, etc. but that could crater those companies and land hundreds of thousands out of work and have hundreds of angry lobbyists threatening to fund primaries of all MAGA congressman that support cutting off NATO supplies. And that’s just ONE example. Think also about the thousands of Americans living abroad. They will all be in harms way. American businesses will be impacted because most have divisions in harms way in Europe. Etc etc etc. There’s just a very high level of ignorance about how our global economy is tied together and how we’d be impacted regardless if the US got out of NATO and Europe went to war with Russia without us.
Trump appears to cut off military intelligence sharing with Ukraine, like on zero notice. The only way to a Russia Ukraine deal is through Ukraine concessions, so Trump is bullying Ukraine into making a deal that is not in their best interest.
This is only effective if the US also stopped intelligence sharing with the Five Eyes. I suspect Putin will make Trump back out of our agreement with Australia, UK etc. relatively soon unless those ties have already been severed and we just haven’t heard about it yet.
Why the **** would anyone trust buying us weapons again? Everyone here in Europe is in outrage and demanding their government to stop buying US weapons. If the USA can cancel all intelligence and maintenance on weapon systems overnight with no notice then that's a major vulnerability that most nations can't afford to gamble on. Jesus trump is destroying all goodwill America built up for decades. Its just insane he's trading Europe for Russia? Srsly wtf is going in America?!
You might be more accurate than you think. I would bet my house Trump has at least floated the idea to his inner circle. However the issue is the CEO of Boeing and Lockheed need to ensure they are getting paid. It’s still a business. I do not think it’s possible to get Boeing to agree to a vendor contract with Russia where there is an approved secure payment process. I don’t know if you’ve ever had to have even an RFP go through the procurement process at a company like Boeing. They do not mess around ensuring that a multi million dollar project will be paid for. I don’t think Russia has the deep pockets that Europe has and can’t compete with what countries like Germany and Sweden are bidding on right now. Maybe Trump could get the US treasury to back those sales to Russia though in case of default… I dunno. Crazy we even have to think about this as a reality.
China is more pro Ukraine than America. What the **** is going on @Nook ? Is china going try to fill the void of America? Does China tell Europe that America is too close with Russia and they should pivot to China? China throws Putin in the dumpster within seconds if it means gaining Europe as an ally. Jesus Trump is trading Europe for Russia. Insanity
Yes, I don't like the term ignorance - but the reality is that we do not live in 1900 or even 1935. At this point the world is interconnected in many ways and that is not going to change anytime soon. Between technology, trade, travel and currencies - isolationism to the degree some are discussing is simply not possible. That does not mean that we have to invade Iraq and Afghanistan like we did 20 years ago. That means that we need to be aware of the current world we live in and benefit from. Many of these same people calling for isolationism now were in favor of the Iraq and Afghanistan war. I appreciate that they have realized the flaws involved in those invasions and the long term financial and social consequences of decades of war. However, trying to go back to 1900 is not prudent. The idea of eliminating the income tax and replacing it with tariffs is a terrible idea. A trade war is a terrible idea and tariffs are one of the leading causes of the Second World War.
I am sure China is doing this for multiple reasons - one it does make China look more reasonable and palatable to the West. China will have to have cordial and substantive discussions with the West in the near future if they want to exert their political influence at the global level. Second, it also makes Trump appear weaker and less in control - which is something that China wants. Third - it's common sense, how is an agreeable deal going to be reached without all parties being on board.
China has a bigger game here. With the US tariffs on allies (Canada, Mexico and likely the EU), China sees an opening to re-enter some key markets. Until now, allies have been complying with US export controls and trade restrictions on China. China very clearly wants to get all of that reversed and putting on a show about supporting Ukraine is a good way of getting into the good graces of Western nations. Here in Canada, we're already seeing calls to lift tariffs on Chinese EVs if the US goes ahead and destroys the Canadian auto industry with tariffs. You'll see this happen in other areas as well as countries need to find both new export markets and new markets to find substitutes for American goods. China sees a nice opening here. The export restrictions led by the US have really hurt them and this is a good opportunity to reverse some of that
And in response the other five eyes countries are talking about limiting intelligence sharing with the US because they're worried that the US will leak the names and locations of their agents and intelligence operations. The five eyes system might collapse by the time this is done.
The only way that the USA would fall as the world's most powerful country is internally and that is what they could be toying with. They have a massive advantage over the rest of the world on a lot of fronts but they are trying hard to self inflict their demise.
Yeah don't forget Biden got ASML to restrict exports to china and they are the only player in the game that manufacturers the equipment needed to make the chips. 4 years ago Europe was solely in the wing of USA. Now it's the polar opposite and there's huge anti america sentiment everywhere. I'm in denmark and I tell everyone I'm british. Its getting ugly here as an American. Its just crazy how Trump is destroying everything in front of him just to be friends with Russia. Its just insanity and it makes no sense in the bigger picture. EU is going to pivot hard to China. It's crazy
Call it what you want, but it's either a willful misunderstanding of our world, or a rejection of it. If someone is trying to make an argument for isolationism without contextualizing the negative aspect of being isolated in a globalized world, then I think we are left to assume some level of ignorance. I'm all for hearing arguments for the US retreating from the world, throwing up walls, and never having any connections to the outside world. However I think it should be expected that in that argument there is some mention of what that person is willing to give up in terms of their way of life in order to achieve that. Hell even Tyler Durden in Fight Club didn't shy away from, and try to sell the benefits of unraveling from the modern world. Have a little bit of conviction, and speak to the reality of what you are really selling here. Otherwise I'm left to assuming you are trying to insult MY INTELLIGENCE by making a case like this with zero context to the reality that argument encompasses. (not YOU personally of course... I mean those who are making either ignorant, or bad faith arguments).
lol pivot hard? TF u saying? EU's biggest trading partner is China at 20%. US is 2nd, at 13%. Thats almost 50% more than the US. This is why the Ukraine war is stupid. The EU can not fund a war against Russia, especially when EU accounts for a large portion for Russia's and China's income. dumb dumb dumb. The left has zero game theory strategy.
You guys always speak in hyperbole. By stating the US does not need to get involved in every war around the globe (which we don't ... only ones that people are programed by propaganda), you automatically assume the opposite by saying ignorant things like isolationism. We are not isolated. We are near shoring to protect our interest locally.
Seems pretty obvious to me. Zelensky needs to be very careful about coordinating his whereabouts with the Americans. It's obvious that Trump has switched sides in a war, and is actively an ally of Russia, and North Korea. Ukrainian's are not safe in the US anymore, and the US is an enemy of Western Democracy and our former global alliances. It's just that simple, and it is that bad.
