There is a far right faction in Ukraine (mostly in the East which is like Ukraine's version of Alabama) but there is a far right faction in almost every country with freedom of speech. Because of the far right, and neo nazi's (many of which like Nick Fuentes who consult with the Trump campaign and frequent Mar A Lago) here in the United States, does that give Canada, and Mexico the right to invade Texas, Louisiana, and Alabama???
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Ukraine and its association with Nazim comparing it to the United States. They don't resemble each other at all.
Adolf Hitler literally quoted the KKK as an inspiration for his Nazi Party although Hitler then used the KKK as a whataboutism propaganda tool during WW2 to try and denigrate the US's role in the war effort. We've had a Nazi problem here in the US even before it was called Nazi. That doesn't mean that the US should be invaded by a foreign neighbor. Just admit that Putin's propagated "justification" is absolutely stupid, and you shouldn't also be propagating it on his behalf to provide cover that there is justification when you and I know there was never a justification.
I never said it was a “justification” Please accurately represent what I say and not what you wish I had said. Ukraine has an old and recent history of fascism/Nazism that doesn’t compare at all in scope, scale or legitimacy with an poor comparisons you can make with places like the US.
I have no doubt you have concern about domestic issues. I simply believe these issues should be at the top of the stack, not buried behind yet another mass casualty shooting. International affairs dominate the news currently, none which are more dire than the stagnation our nations faces. I believe the current era is dominated by populism and elitism. I view the DNC and RNC as elites. The RNC has lost control of their party and now have that jackhole dominating that voting base. We can't afford to have the DNC follow the similar path, however with the absurd social policies and the piss poor candidates (Hillary, Biden and Harris), I fear their voting base will abandon them for someone like Sanders. Biden is not a bad guy, however leaving him on the ticket is a very bad idea. We shouldn't have a candidate on the ticket who has a much much higher probability of dying, leaving it to that quack Harris. Harris is not a team player and she is incompetent. She is the opposite of Biden. Unfortunately the DNC is in complete paralysis in fear of a Trump victory. There is benefit to listening to everyone. As I stated, you are acting as if the current leadership of the United States isn't feeding you bullshit too. You do not have to swallow it, but you should be aware of it. Living in echo chambers is a very very bad way to live. If you can't listen to everyone, then all one ends up doing is focusing on the differences and never finding the commonality. If we stopped listening to everyone we disagreed with, we all would be islands. It depends on whether you believe that the fall of Ukraine will have negative consequences for the USA. Also - a lot of the problems in the USA has to do with the distribution of wealth, which is something that neither party has successfully addressed. Is Trump the worst? No, there are always worse possibilities - Trump is the canary in the coal mine.[/QUOTE]
Ehhh..... before World War II there was certainly a surprising degree of sympathy and support for Adolf Hitler and the Nazi cause. There were people like Fritz Kuhn that were selling out Madison Square Garden in the 1930's. There was also a lot of antisemitism and those that supported Hitler against the Communists. After WWII it was very hard to find any real support though. As for Ukraine - they were starved (literally) by the Soviets, and saw a lot of their people murdered by the Soviets. When the Nazi Germans moved into Ukraine there were parades held, just like there were when the Nazi Germany came through parts of the Middle East and Africa. That was largely because the Ukrainians were happy to have the Soviets removed, and did not believe things could get worse. After Nazi Germany began killing and starving the Ukrainians as well, they turned against the Nazi's. As for Ukraine the last 30 years? There are some Ukrainians that fought against the Soviets and for the Nazi.
Those from Ukraine aren't refugees. They are displaced white people! The GOP is playing the long game here. They want Russia to win so we get a flood of white people to the U.S. They have to stop the white replacement!
The scale and scope of modern Nazi influence and their level of legitimacy in Ukrainian society doesn't compare at all with modern American society where it is basically a social death sentence to be identified as a Nazi and where you have limited-to-no employment opportunities let alone influence of any kind at any level of government or in society writ large. Historically I'll explain my understanding as briefly as I can. While America had some level of Nazi support before American entry into the war, often times from 1st or second generation German immigrants (The U.S. looked a lot different at that time) and a few famous folks like Henry Ford or Charles Lindbergh, It represented a tiny minority of persons who had limited to no political influence or mainstream support and the movement completely disappeared essentially with Americas entry into the War. Additionally you had what I would contend was an "average" amount of anti-Semitism compared to the rest of the Western world at that time but you had Jewish integration in all levels of society enjoying the fruits of the American economy and, generally, prospering just like most other Americans. We can't really do a pre-war analysis of Ukrainian predilections towards the tenets of national socialism. There was no freedom of association in the USSR in the 1930s. We would have to look at actions in war and anti-Semitism pre-war/during the war and post-war and if you did look at those categories they would blow the doors off the conduct of Americans. Ukraine was firmly in the "pale of settlement" and had a very large pre-war Jewish population. Eastern Europe at that time, and probably still today, was one of, if not the, most anti-Semitic place in the world. Pogroms, involving the out right murder of Jews, the injury of Jews and the stealing from Jews were regular occurrences in modern day Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Russia and Ukraine. Jews, for the most part, did not live in society with non-Jews, society was strictly segregated. There were "Poles" and there were "Jews" - now in more progressive places like large cities, say, Warsaw, this was a bit different. Anti-Semitism was common and extreme in pale of settlement countries. Jews regularly emigrated to places like the United States and Palestine to escape these conditions. Going to America, while also economically beneficial, would have been a dream with regards to escaping anti-Semitism, even if some existed still in America. Moving into the War, obviously, Pale of Settlement countries, including Ukraine, have an extremely problematic relationship with the Holocaust. More then 1 million Ukrainian Jews were murdered. The reality of the situation is that a massive amount of the Holocaust was carried out by Eastern Europeans who were, frankly, happy to do it. They hated Jews, they saw them as "others", they stood to benefit from stealing their neighbors possessions and land and they did. Some (all too few) were heros and helped Jews selflessly. Some helped Jews for money. Lots turned Jews in, lots actively participated in the Holocaust as part of nationalist militias assisting the Germans deport Jews or literally participating in the shooting of Jews. To the tune of millions of persons. Lots joined the SS and fought with nationalist motivations but also not particularly opposed to German philosophy towards Jews. Lots of these Nazi collaborators have been and still are lionized as heros by the Ukrainian people - that's really problematic. And, as we know, lots of Jews who did survive the holocaust had absolutely 0 desire to return to Eastern Europe, many immigrated to the United States (such an anti-Semitic place right? Weird) or Israel or Canada. Many Jews who did try to return home found their properties stolen by locals and routinely suffered pogroms/massacres and were beaten to death by their neighbors so they could keep their stolen gains. The history is revolting. Moving into the modern era, we see historical Nazi Ukrainian collaborators lionized regularly (like the incident in Canadian Parliament but also in Ukraine itself we similar actions), Ukraine is home to the largest Neo-Nazi annual festival, Asgardsrei, Ukraine is home to several Neo-Nazi paramilitary groups who, far from this association being a social death sentence, are open and proud and considered some of the countries greatest heros. TLDR: It's difficult to overstate the level of anti-Semitism historically found in Eastern Europe. No, there is no genuine comparison between historical or modern Ukrainian anti-Semitism/Nazi association and historical or modern American anti-Semitism/Nazi association. TLDR: I recommend anyone watch Claude Lanzmann's Shoah, a 9 hour documentary on the Holocaust, where the French filmmaker was actually able to access the USSR in the 1970s and interview Eastern European locals who were present during the war. It's very interesting. A keen observer would note many of these locals being interviewed can't even disguise their anti-Semitism/lack of care/contempt for the Jews even when they know the French filmmaker is likely sympathetic to the Jewish victims of the Holocaust. A lot of "whatever they were just Jews" energy in that doc.
[/QUOTE] You are missing @Nook 's point. It doesn't matter if we sent Ukraine 1 trillion dollars. That money wouldn't be getting spent on homelessness, education, etc. here.
A problem with online discourse is all you need is one sentence to make a lazy and intellectually dishonest comparison or assertion like, “America has Nazis too” but to properly rebut the proposition it takes a lot more effort and explanation.
Yes certainly like many other parts of Europe was very antisemitic during WWII, so historically was Russia. The current president and war time leader of Ukraine is Jewish and he was elected in in a relatively free and open election. In fact he was considered an outsider. Those facts strongly argue against that Nazism both as an antisemitic or authoritarian movement has a strong influence in Ukraine.
I largely agree with this but the claims of Putin mean little - because Russia is loaded with Nazi’s and nationalists. Hell - the founder of Wagner, Dmitrey Utkin was a neo Nazi.
You are missing @Nook 's point. It doesn't matter if we sent Ukraine 1 trillion dollars. That money wouldn't be getting spent on homelessness, education, etc. here.[/QUOTE] That really isn't the grand point. Im less interested in debating the merits of Ukraine and more making the point we have serious issues here that are being ignored. I understand much of the 1 trillion will go to American jobs to make weapons. I also understand that Urkaine will be beholden to the US's whim's if they survive. The problem is that its not being spent on those problems and just because our politicians tell us that its not important doesn't mean people need to lock step with their idiocy.
Please… you’re the one that brought up the issue of Ukraine having Nazi’s. While you didn’t directly saying “that justifies invading Ukraine” the inclusion into your argument obviously plays into a softening of Putins argument or one of his 100 arguments that he blabs on about to make the other person just give up on thinking he’s within reasoning. And I have no idea why you are trying so hard to argue that Ukraine’s Nazi problem is so drastically different than other parts of the world. Historically you are incorrect about the support for the Nazi’s prior to entering WW2. Just tonight historian Michael Beshloss recounted that half of the Democratic Party in the house (those that represented the south) voted against entering WW2, were part of or took money from the KKK, and openly expressed Nazi support. Yes today if you wear a swastika you will likely lose your job and your social life with fall apart. However that does not mean that white nationalist views akin to Nazi ideals are not well accounted for in the US, and that doesn’t mean that Ukrainians who are Nazi’s wear swastiskas around all the time in their daily lives as well in 2024. All that being said, my point is that the Nazi issue in Eastern Ukraine is BS when it comes to an objective discussion on Putins war in Ukraine. You and I know it had NOTHING to do with Putins decision to invade. That’s propaganda. Plain and simple so let’s not waste our time bringing that into the mix with this debate of whether or not we should send aid to Kyiv. We aren’t sending money to the Nazi party of any country.
