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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    I agree with this analysis of the problems of a protracted war but a diplomatic solution is ultimately up to the Russians and the Ukrainians. If the US were to force the Ukrainians to a diplomatic solution on Russian terms it will not be in the longterm interests of the US, Europe or the rest of the World. It will provide more justification for use of military force rather than less.

    At the moment there doesn't appear much willingness from either side to come to a negotiated settlement.
     
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  2. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    Where to start....

    Zalensky and Ukraine were initially ready for and moving towards a negotiated settlement, which was being mediated by Turkey. The US and NATO stepped in to discourage Ukraine from agreeing to a negotiated settlement, and then that deal fell apart. The Russians have repeatedly expressed their interest in a negotiated settlement, even as recently as a few weeks ago. It is the North Atlantic globalist elites who have been intent on keeping that from happening, at extraordinary cost to the nation and people of Ukraine.

    Ultimately, the US and NATO are going to have to be parties to any negotiated agreement, as this conflict is in effect a proxy war between NATO and Russia. Ukraine is just the unfortunate location for this face-off.

    The North Atlantic globalist elites do not want a negotiated agreement, because that will establish for all the world to see that the so-called "rules based international order" - which these same western elites imagine they are the rule makers for (but not rule followers) - does not actually exist in the real world, but only in those people's deranged imaginations.

    That is what is at stake here, in their view. Their very sense of identity and purpose is so intertwined with this baseless fantasy that they cannot bear to let it go. But that is exactly what is required of them here, for the good of the Ukrainian people and for the good of humanity as a whole.
     
  3. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Depends on what you mean by "forcing" is stating that we will not keep giving you unlimited military weapon no matter how long you prolong the war or how maximalist your goals are? Good conceivably for oligarchs and politicians in Ukraine and our defense industry businessmen, but hardly good for most Ukrainians.
     
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  4. larsv8

    larsv8 Member

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  5. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Negotiations fell apart when it was discovered that Russian soldiers had been committing war crimes in areas like Kharkiv after they pulled out.

    Putin’s offers for a negotiated settlement aren’t realistic as they would mean a surrender of Ukrainian soverignity, which I’m guessing you would be fine with but I don’t think most Ukrainians would.
    Putin could always agree to a ceasefire and a withdrawal of Russian troops back to Russian territory which I’m sure the Ukrainians would accept.

    Much of the World including Europe would likely welcome a negotiated settlement as the war is causing problems with both oil and food supplies. Considering the Ukrainians are still fighting, taking casualties and asking for more weapons shows it’s not the US or NATO driving this but the direct combatants.
     
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  6. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Most Ukrainians seem very willing to fight.

    As stated above though Russia could also agree to a cease fire. I find it interesting how you and other posters seem to place most of the onus on peace to countries like the US and NATO that aren’t direct combatants yet ignore the country that actually started it by invading Ukraine.
     
    #7946 rocketsjudoka, Jun 26, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  7. basso

    basso Member
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  8. dc rock

    dc rock Member

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  9. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    New strategy confirmed. Eat all the Ukranian reactionaries who resist glorious Soviet Russian liberators.
     
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  10. Redfish81

    Redfish81 Member

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    Should be easy to spot from a drone....
     
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  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    veteran of the pizza wars
     
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  12. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Seems the Ukraine is losing - and we are slow rolling the equipment now, and that the West is losing it's resolve or attention span.....

    DD
     
  13. basso

    basso Member
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    it's just Ukraine. Ohio State has trademarked the use of THE.
     
  14. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    From CNN. So take it with a grain of salt:

    Biden officials privately doubt that Ukraine can win back all of its territory

    White House officials are losing confidence that Ukraine will ever be able to take back all of the land it has lost to Russia over the past four months of war, US officials told CNN, even with the heavier and more sophisticated weaponry the US and its allies plan to send.

    Advisers to President Joe Biden have begun debating internally how and whether Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky should shift his definition of a Ukrainian “victory” – adjusting for the possibility that his country has shrunk irreversibly.

    US officials emphasized to CNN that this more pessimistic assessment does not mean the US plans to pressure Ukraine into making any formal territorial concessions to Russia in order to end the war. There is also hope that Ukrainian forces will be able to take back significant chunks of territory in a likely counteroffensive later this year.

    A congressional aide familiar with the deliberations told CNN that a smaller Ukrainian state is not inevitable. “Whether Ukraine can take back these territories is in large part, if not entirely, a function of how much support we give them,” the aide said. He noted that Ukraine has formally asked the US for a minimum of 48 multiple launch rocket systems, but to date has only been promised eight from the Pentagon.

    The mood has shifted over the last several weeks, though, as Ukraine has struggled to repel Russia’s advances in the Donbas and has suffered staggering troop losses, reaching as many as 100 soldiers per day. Ukrainian forces are also burning through their equipment and ammunition faster than the West can provide and train them on new, NATO-standard weapons systems.

    A US military official and a source familiar with Western intelligence agreed it was unlikely that Ukraine would be able to mass the force necessary to reclaim all of the territory lost to Russia during the fighting – especially this year, as Zelensky said on Monday was his goal. A substantial counteroffensive might be possible with more weapons and training, the sources said, but Russia may also have an opportunity to replenish its force in that time, so there are no guarantees.​


    Looks like the clouds of unreality are starting to part a little bit. This is a good sign.
     
  15. basso

    basso Member
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  16. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    That recently recalled 67 year old Russian General is salivating when he hears dropped and Turkey in the same sentence
     
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  17. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    It would mean more if the President of Turkey said it, yes?
     
  18. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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  19. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    this was funnier in the other thread
     
  20. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Sweden and Finland are both joining Nato - a monumental shift for two nations with a long history of wartime neutrality and staying out of military alliances. During a Nato summit in Madrid, they overcame what is likely to be the final obstacle - objections by Turkey.

    The decision was announced by the two prime ministers: Magdalena Andersson of Sweden and Finland's Sanna Marin


    [​IMG]

    Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson of Sweden is on the left and "reason enough to visit Helsinki!" Prime Minister Sanna Marin of Finland is on the right.
     
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