I guess you could make an argument for killing Putin. Cd not the same argument have been made about Bush and Cheney?
Your questions though sort of discount Ukraine having any agency over those decisions. That's sort of my point. Yes we are influential, and if Trump was in office Ukraine wouldn't need to be invaded because Trump would be left the opening for Zelensky to be ousted via coup or whatever mechanism. But given that this isn't the case now because Russia isn't in control of the US, France, etc. like they would like to, there are certain moral obligations to freedom. However Ukraine... if they are allowed to be free... have agency currently, and are not a vassal state even though of course I believe Russia is lying to their people that they are. Just because Russia is lying to their people though doesn't mean we have to make decisions around is Russia going to lie or be truthful... .because they never will. Let's just see how it plays out and try and not be useful idiots like Tulsi Gabbard please. Ukraine at the moment has agency. Let's not take that away from them and deny them that in the public sphere for now. They aren't Saigon.
You're still quick to dismiss Ukraine's own demographics for the third time. The western side wanted EU relations while the more ethnically Russian side on the East did not want to alienate Russia. Central government didn't want a split in the East because they are more industrialised and some form of departure would cripple their economy. That resulted in the civil war that forced the international community to intervene. You speak simplitudes of agency without even exercising due process as an outsider. Perhaps the urgency you gather from media and reports compells you to fling accusations of "useful idiots" while participating in your own morally driven group think, which is largely a privilege American citizens have for carrying the largest stick. It's no wonder we're ****ing bankrupt from the piling debts of the past 4 major wars. In this case, it's more than debts and lost American/brown lives accrued. Btw, I'm not denying the Ukrainians anything. That 33 billion will trickle down to their fighters no matter what i write or even if I streak down Toyota Center during a halftime show. You simply have no problem with congressman practicing photo-ops as statecraft when you agree with their actions. You're more a part of the problem than the Russia lovers. At least they're open to a quicker ceasefire and are more obvious with whose lives they intend to save.
DD specifically cited that “civilians were dying” I don’t disagree with wht yo said. But based on how he was specifically queried and his reasoning, he is wrong
Ooohhh K. Actually I have friends from Ukraine and my family used to host families from Ukraine through their church for more than 10 years. So be careful throwing accusations out there bub. Yes I know East Ukraine is a vastly different country than the West. I’m just saying it’s not as black and white as Iraq or Vietnam and I believe the Ukrainian leadership which was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED has more agency than Saigon or Baghdad did when the US overinvolved itself. That’s not some hugely controversial thing to say, and saying I’m “part of the problem” in terms of the US and wars???… WTF?? That’s pretty far out of left field and quite the accusation. Especially from someone who actually knows and watches Free Speech TV… which probably isn’t very many of us here. So calm your t***. Geezus. (also I’ve repeatedly talked about how a peace plan would look like in terms of the East… but again…that’s not up to us… Zelensky and his parliament will have the final say so in terms of land they are willing to give up in a peace deal. Where we disagree is you are obviously buying the line that the US is pulling all the strings here and I disagree at least at thing point.)
I'll believe it when it happens. Hope it's true. Mentally, Putin is losing it more day by day. Losing this war, too.
He is just pissed that I said the Afghans had more than 300,000 troops against 50k, Taliban fighters and laid down their weapons. if they won’t fight for their own country, why should we? The Ukraine is and we are helping. And Skyrim is a great game, but more of a Doritos guy these days. DD
Seems like a rose-colored way of characterizing it. The east had separatists that Russia saw political advantage in supporting. They created a proxy war in the east. After the 2014 revolution that ran off the pro-Russian Yanukovych, the pro-Western Poroshenko won the election without a runoff. Then, in the first round of the 2019 election, the top 3 vote-getters were pro-Western and got ~60% of the vote (with many more small candidates); the top pro-Russian candidate got 12%. From the parliament's decision to associate with the EU, and then the Maidan Revolution that ousted Yanukovych for sinking it, and the two elections since then that have strongly favored pro-Western candidates, the political will of Ukrainians to look west is pretty clear. Russian separatists in the east may genuinely disagree but they were absolutely outvoted and the internal strife we've seen since then is the fruit of Putin's meddling in internal affairs to stop Ukraine from leaving its sphere of influence.
Spot on, this doesn't get discussed enough. Far too often, the media presents Ukraine as two nations with divergent interests that happen to make up one country. Putting aside the fact that this war has proven that to be false, the evidence was already there to disprove this notion. Even Eastern Ukraine has been tilting away from Russia over the past decade. Even before the war, when they polled people to ask if they supported joining the EU (or EEA) versus joining the Russian led customs union, the EU overwhelmingly won (even in the east). I think less than 20% of Ukrainians supported aligning with the Russian union. Meanwhile close to 70% of Ukraine wants to align with the EU. The only "pro-Russian" regions of Ukraine are Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts respectively. Those two areas do have a history of voting for pro Russian politicians but that's it. Other Russian speaking regions (Kharkiv, Dnipro, Odesa, Zaporizha, etc..) voted for Zelensky in both the first and second rounds in the last election. Luhansk and Donetsk make up less than 15% of Ukraine's population. And in polls, the pro Russia faction barely crosses 20%. So some quick math shows just how limited pro-Russian sentiment really is nowadays.
I would really like to know who the dumbass is who authorized the public sharing of this info. don't compromise opsec for political reasons.
My guess is this is coming from a Republican in Congress with access to classified intelligence. Nobody who wants the US to avoid conflict would share this with the media and the media is showing their true cards here that they’d put the US is a likelier situation for direct conflict by feeding Russian propaganda just for a story. We all know that the US is likely helping with intelligence. Do you REALLY need to publish this article and give Russia propaganda and undercut the perceived capabilities of the Ukrainians??
