Ukraine Protests

outlaw96, thank you very much for your insightful post.

What a welcome contrast to Major spouting his ridiculous and uninformed bullcrap.

"a democratically elected president was removed because people didn't like some decisions he made"

Still the worst post ever.

 

Any bets on which side will fire the first shot and kill a member of the other side? There's no way ukraine will risk provoking Russia even more, so I'm going to guess a Russian disguised as a Ukrainian fires the first shot.

 

You same clowns that are trying to make this some kind of an anti-Obama situation are a sad joke. All the risk and pressure is on Putin, all the national embarrassment would be his losing influence in the former Russian state. He must walk the razor blade between looking impotent and actually engaging acts that will effect the balance of power in Eurasia and threaten a shooting war. He's already over the barrel supporting Assad, he is already fighting a domestic terrorist war with Chechen rebels. He will rattle every saber ehe can to look like a big scary bear to maintain his domestic power and world prestige, coming on the heels of whatever people think of "his" Olympics.

He will use limited force, he will use his natural gas monopoly leverage. He will not lose the Crimea, he might desire a Ukrainian partition.

I don't think he would invade the Ukraine as a whole or try to force a return to power for Yanukovych . First of all I don't think he could afford it from the strain on his domestic reserves, I don't think he would expose his army and I don't think he would risk becoming a world pariah. Russia's exposure to Islamic extremism is not protected by two oceans.

As for China, China only cares about China. They will sit back and use the conflict for whatever serves their interest but I see very little that would interest them in the whole affair.

I think this will rumble for a while and settle with Putin getting enough to save face and the people of Western Ukraine maintaining their sovereignty and a European future.

But, don't decommission those A-10's just yet.

 

This. When Major, etc... say half of Ukraine wants this, it's not half of Ukraine it's the Russian plants in the country. Putin/Stalin not much difference between those two. Putin is just more crafty and does things under the radar.

 

Most of the Crimea is basically a desert, with less annual rainfall than Los Angeles. It is impossible to sustain its 2 million people—including agriculture and the substantial tourist industry—without Ukrainian water. Current supplies aren’t even enough. In Sevastopol, home of the Black Sea Fleet, households get water only on certain days. In fact, on Feb. 19, when snipers were shooting protesters on the streets of Kiev, Sevastopol applied for $34 million in Western aid (note the irony) to improve its water and sewer systems.

The Crimea’s dependence on Ukraine for nearly all of it electricity makes it equally vulnerable to nonviolent retaliation. One suggestion making the rounds of the Ukrainian Internet is that the mainland, with warning, shut off the power for 15 minutes. It may not normalize the situation, but it could give Moscow pause. Of course, Russia could retaliate by cutting off Ukrainian gas supplies, but that would mean cutting off much of Europe as well. Besides, Ukrainians proved this winter that they aren’t afraid of the cold, and spring is coming.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._the_russian_president_is_miscalculating.html

 

I have to agree. And Major is usually a poster I agree with but I think sometimes he plays devils advocate just for the sake of it. If you think Yanukovich was elected democratically then I have some ocean front property to sell you. Yanukovich stole all of the money from the Ukrainian people. I have relatives who own businesses in Ukrain and the govt just walks into their business and takes whatever they want, cash etc for "taxes". The people there are dirt poor they have nothing, doctors and teachers make the same exact salary - paid by the govt which is around the equilavent of $300 US dollars per month. How do I know this? My mother in law is a teacher and my father in law is a doctor.

 

Ive been totally out of the news scene for a while...but this is some major yet scary news...Russia totally acting out of line. Regardless of whether there is a large Russian contingency within the Ukarinian province, there is zero reason for military mobilization...Now with reports that are stating that they are set to take over the country...This could trigger something really bad in the region.
Putin is one crazy...SOB...

 

Here we go. This is good. Anti-War / Anti-govt protests in Russia!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Antiwar protests in Russia being broken up. Russian bond market &amp; ruble crashing should result in many more protests <a href="http://t.co/5leF3PTGYA">pic.twitter.com/5leF3PTGYA</a></p>&mdash; James Farro (@JF991) <a href="https://twitter.com/JF991/statuses/440063976509300737">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Good news that there are antiwar protests already in Russia, despite lots of arrests <a href="http://t.co/kOVIIjtYLj">pic.twitter.com/kOVIIjtYLj</a> via <a href="https://twitter.com/Richardgalpin">@Richardgalpin</a></p>&mdash; Dream Deferred (@dreamdef1) <a href="https://twitter.com/dreamdef1/statuses/440125131575148544">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Anti-Russian protests spread to <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Berlin&amp;src=hash">#Berlin</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Germany&amp;src=hash">#Germany</a> as protesters picket outside the embassy to tell <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Russia&amp;src=hash">#Russia</a> how they feel about <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Ukraine&amp;src=hash">#Ukraine</a>.</p>&mdash; K T Blackadder (@KTBlackadder) <a href="https://twitter.com/KTBlackadder/statuses/440117361224343552">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Russia: Could these protests topple Putin? - Telegraph <a href="http://t.co/1D8iTm6qty">http://t.co/1D8iTm6qty</a></p>&mdash; Rights in Russia (@rightsinrussia) <a href="https://twitter.com/rightsinrussia/statuses/440108603249160195">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
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You're right. I've been saying that people have no idea how big this is. Putin/Stalin/Hitler what's the difference? The International community is IN SHOCK that this is actually happening. I still say the best case scenario is for the people of Russia to rise up and overthrow Putin. That would be incredible. It's time.

 

No one's going to overthrow Putin.

Anyone who has been paying attention for a while shouldn't be surprised about Putin's actions. It's not like he's tried to disguise who he is.

 

Ukraine mobilizes after Putin's 'declaration of war'

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA1Q1E820140302

(Reuters) - Ukraine mobilized for war on Sunday, after Russian President Vladimir Putin declared he had the right to invade, creating the biggest confrontation between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.

"This is not a threat: this is actually the declaration of war to my country," said Ukraine's Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, head of a pro-Western government that took power when Russian ally Viktor Yanukovich fled last week.

Putin obtained permission from his parliament on Saturday to use military force to protect Russian citizens in Ukraine, spurning Western pleas not intervene.

Russian forces have already bloodlessly seized Crimea - an isolated Black Sea peninsula where Moscow has a naval base. On Sunday they surrounded several small Ukrainian military outposts there and demanded the Ukrainian troops disarm. Some refused, although no shots were fired.

Russia has staged war games with 150,000 troops along the land border, but so far they have not crossed. However, pro-Russian demonstrators have marched in the east of the country and have raised Russian flags over government buildings in several cities, in what Kiev says is a move orchestrated by Moscow to justify a wider invasion.

Ukraine's security council ordered the general staff to immediately put all armed forces on highest alert, the council's secretary Andriy Parubiy announced.

The Defense Ministry was ordered to conduct a call-up of reserves - theoretically all men up to 40 in a country with universal male conscription, though Ukraine would struggle to find extra guns or uniforms for significant numbers of them.

"If President Putin wants to be the president who started the war between two neighboring and friendly countries, between Ukraine and Russia, so: he has reached this target within a few inches. We are on the brink of disaster," Yatseniuk said in televised remarks in English, appealing for Western support.

THREAT TO EASTERN UKRAINE

At Kiev's Independence Square, where anti-Yanukovich protesters had camped out for months, thousands demonstrated against Russian military action. Speakers delivered rousing orations and placards read: "Putin, hands off Ukraine!"

Oleh, an advertising executive cooking over a big open fire at the square where he has been camped for three months, said: "If there is a need to protect the nation, we will go and defend the nation.... If Putin wants to take Ukraine for himself, he will fail. We want to live freely and we will live freely."

Of potentially even greater concern than Russia's seizure of majority ethnic Russian Crimea are eastern swathes of the country, where most ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian as a native language.

Those areas saw more demonstrations on Sunday after violent protests on Saturday, and for a second day pro-Moscow demonstrators hoisted flags at government buildings and called for Russia to defend them. Kiev said Russia had sent hundreds of its citizens across the border to stage the protests.

Putin's declaration that he has the right to invade his neighbor - for which he quickly received the unanimous approval of his senate - brought the prospect of war to a country of 46 million people on the ramparts of central Europe.

"President Obama expressed his deep concern over Russia's clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, which is a breach of international law," the White House said after the leaders spoke for 90 minutes on Saturday.

Ukraine has appealed for help to NATO, and directly to Britain and the United States, as co-signatories with Moscow to a 1994 accord guaranteeing Ukraine's security after the breakup of the Soviet Union.

NATO ambassadors met in Brussels to discuss their next steps. Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen accused Russia of threatening peace and security in Europe.

SYMBOLIC RESPONSE

Washington has proposed sending monitors to Ukraine under the flags of the United Nations or Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, bodies where Moscow would have a veto.

So far, the Western response has been largely symbolic. Obama and other leaders suspended plans to attend a G8 summit in Sochi, where Putin has just finished staging his $50 billion winter Olympic games. Some countries recalled ambassadors.

"This is probably the most dangerous situation in Europe since the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968," said a Western official. "Realistically, we have to assume the Crimea is in Russian hands. The challenge now is to deter Russia from taking over the Russian-speaking east of Ukraine."

Ukraine's tiny armed forces would be no match against the might of its superpower neighbor. Britain's International Institute of Strategic Studies estimates Kiev has fewer than 130,000 troops under arms, with planes barely ready to fly and few spare parts for a single submarine.

Russia, by contrast, has spent billions under Putin to upgrade and modernize the capabilities of forces that were dilapidated after the breakup of the Soviet Union. Moscow's special units are now seen as equals of the best in the world.

In Crimea, Ukraine's tiny contingent made no attempt to oppose the Russians, who bore no insignia on their uniforms but drove vehicles with Russian plates and seized government buildings, airports and other locations in the past three days. Kiev said its troops were encircled at least three places.

Igor Mamchev, a Ukrainian navy colonel at a small base near the regional capital Simferopol, told Ukraine's Channel 5 television a truckload of Russian troops had arrived at his checkpoint and told his forces to lay down their arms.

"I replied that, as I am a member of the armed forces of Ukraine, under orders of the Ukrainian navy, there could be no discussion of disarmament. In case of any attempt to enter the military base, we will use all means, up to lethal force.

"We are military people, who have given our oath to the people of Ukraine and will carry out our duty until the end."

Dmytro Delyatytskiy, commander of Ukrainian marines barricaded into a base in the Crimean port of Feodosia, told the same television station by telephone he had refused a Russian demand that his troops give up weapons by 10 a.m.

"We have orders," he said. "We are preparing our defenses."

Elsewhere on the occupied peninsula, the Russian forces appeared to be assuming a lower profile on Sunday after the pro-Moscow Crimean leader announced overnight that the situation was now "normalized". Russians had vanished from outside a small Ukrainian guard post in the port of Balaclava that they had surrounded with armored vehicles on Saturday.

A barricade in front of the Crimean regional parliament had been dismantled. A single armored vehicle with two soldiers drove through the main square, where people snapped photos.

Putin's justification - the need to protect Russian citizens - was the same as he used to launch a 2008 invasion of Georgia, where Russian forces seized two breakaway regions.

In Russia, state controlled media portray Yanukovich's removal as a coup by dangerous extremists funded by the West and there has been little sign of dissent with that line.

Putin told Obama "there are real threats to the life and health of Russian citizens and compatriots on Ukrainian territory", according to the Kremlin's readout of the phone call. Moscow reserved the right to intervene on behalf of Russian speakers anywhere they were threatened, Putin added.

So far there has been no sign of Russian military action outside Crimea, but Kiev officials accused Moscow of being behind the pattern of violent protests in eastern cities.

Pro-Moscow demonstrators flew Russian flags on Saturday and Sunday at government buildings in cities including Kharkiv, Donetsk, Odessa and Dnipropetrovsk. In places they clashed with anti-Russian protesters and guards defending the buildings.

Ukrainian parliamentarian Hrygory Nemyriya, a spokesman to foreign journalists for the new authorities, said the pro-Moscow marchers were sent from Russia.

The worst violence took place in Kharkiv, where scores of people were hurt on Saturday when thousands of pro-Russian activists, some brandishing axe handles and chains, stormed the regional government and fought pitched battles with a smaller number of supporters of Ukraine's new authorities.

In Donetsk, Yanukovich's home city, the local government building was flying the Russian flag for the second day on Sunday. The local authorities have called for a referendum on the region's status, a move Kiev says is illegal. A pro-Russian "self-defense" unit held a second day of mass protests, attracting about 1,000 demonstrators carrying Russian flags.

Ludmila Petrova, 35, described the new authorities in Kiev as "slaves of the European Union" and said she favored Putin's declaration of the right to intervene.

"Maybe this will stop the hotheads in Kiev from bringing war to the Don basin and the Crimea. Maybe now they will think there is someone willing to defend these people."

 

Why not? The entire world and many of his own people are against him now. This is how people get overthrown.

 

John Kerry said it best "19th Century tactics in the 21st century.."

There are so many other ways that the Russians can address this situation. First and foremost, let the people of Ukraine vote and decide. Secondly, Russia should seek to open its borders for anyone that wants to enter from Ukraine as opposed to expanding its own. Entering another nation under the rouse of protecting its citizens and protecting Russian interests is complete and utter garbage.

The US and the allies should strongly consider approving military action if the country of Ukraine is taken over. As protest across Russia and other countries with Russian speaking people rise up in defiance against war, Putin must act with careful consideration or risk being crushed. I have met so many cool Russian people and friends, and I am sure that a majority of their people do not want a military conflict. Wars tear apart nations, and Putin risks tearing apart his own.

 

This is true. For the younger generation who uses the internet. We have many Russian friends and they feel this way, however there is a ton of propaganda going on right now and the older generation who still has a soviet mentality are falling for it. My wife showed me on a Russian news site, she translated it for me that they were saying Ukrianians are killing all of the ethnic Russians and Obama wants to come in and put in "gay" schools and turn all the children gay. Not joking.

 

Right, Nuke = your guns

 

I'm going to dip my toe into using Hitler in a post, hopefully the only time I'll ever have to do it. But somebody on FB pointed out that Putin is actually use the same justification as Hitler did when he invaded Czechoslovakia:

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Speech_on_the_Invasion_of_Czechoslovakia_by_Adolf_Hitler_(Fall_Grün)

http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6752

 

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>And what exactly is the persecution to which the Crimean Russians are being subjected? Same as Sudeten Germans in 1938..?</p>&mdash; Simon Schama (@simon_schama) <a href="https://twitter.com/simon_schama/statuses/440146279520157696">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
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And hitler and putin both hosted olympics that acted as proxies for social rights issues in their countries. Dun dun dunnnnnn. AND obama-hitler, so this could be a hitler vs hitler vs hitler mega war!

(Not denigrating your post, just having some fun).

 

Exactly. Major?

 

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Russian dude with Russian passport, foto says &quot;Tovarische Putin I don't need your protection&quot; <a href="http://t.co/BGmdFJErjR">pic.twitter.com/BGmdFJErjR</a></p>&mdash; bruce springnote (@BSpringnote) <a href="https://twitter.com/BSpringnote/statuses/440147176543379456">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
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