Ukraine Protests

I didn't say half the people wanted Russia in control. I said half the people supported the previous President, who supports closer ties with Russia. He's gotten somewhere around 50% of the vote in 3 separate elections over the course of the last decade (1 corrupt, 2 considered fair). Voters are not random Russians that came into the country - they are the citizens of the country. That support may have gone down since he came into office, but even if you're talking 30-40% of the people, that's a very different logistical situation than some of the recent revolutions around the world, especially when those people are concentrated in one region of the country.

What do these two statements have to do with each other? Yes, he's corrupt. But that doesn't mean he wasn't democratically elected. Nixon was corrupt - he was still democratically elected President of the US by a majority of its people. Are you saying the most recent election he won was fraudulent?

What part of "that doesn't mean he's right" do you not grasp? You are just throwing up random strawmen that have nothing to do with anything I said. I am arguing from analytical perspective of the situation and why Russia is involving itself - I not making some kind of moral defense of their actions as you seem to keep implying. Understanding WHY they are doing what they are doing is key to the West effectively reacting. The fact that people just want to simplify the situation into some kind of anti-US thing or "Hey, look at this one similarity, therefore Putin=Hitler!" suggests that they aren't really interested in understanding the dynamics here. That's what leads people to bad conclusions about how to respond.

 

Absolutely, positively 100% YES, THE MOST RECENT ELECTION WAS FRAUDULENT! How could you even question that? Russia was in control of that election the whole time. One defense of Yanukovich, this recent decision to form closer ties with Russia or the EU - he didn't have a choice. Russia did not give him a choice. It was a life or death decision for him.

It sounds like you are saying that you "understand' why Russia is doing this. When I read your posts I feel like you are saying you see Russia's side of things & maybe I'm wrong but that the way myself and I believe ATW is reading your posts. I believe the Hitler comparison is spot on. You don't seem to see it the same way. I think the biggest misunderstanding that you have is that you think the previous elections weren't rigged. If you believe that then I understand you other comments on the topic.

 

Obama needs to find his balls and honor the treaty. This is going to help quick, fast, and in a hurry.

 

good exampel of Putin's propoganda. I call it Putin's because I have nothing against Russian people, only against the politics of their government.

 

Thier propaganda is on the level of Hitler. They are saying that the west and Obama want to come into Ukraine and put in Gay Schools and teach the children of Ukraine to be Gay and that Russia must rise up against this.

 

I'm sorry if I missed some earlier posts but are you Ukranian? Because I get the impression that you're naively passionate about this.

Russia is not Nazi Germany no matter how badly you want it to be.

 

Naively passionate? No I'm not Ukrainian but I know way more about this than you do because I lived in Ukraine and I have family there right now. I guess the entire international community is also Naive? Are you working for the Russian media or something?

 

You are comparing:

A country exerting its influence on a rioting neighbor

to

A country that slaughtered millions on two war fronts and allied itself with the equally inhuman imperial japan

It doesn't mean I condone what Putin is doing, it just means I think you are being ridiculous and you're spitting on the graves of every innocent civilians and allied warriors from WW2 when you make this outrageous comparison.

 

Is that really what you think Russia is doing? If Turkey rolled troops into Syria right now and started taking over airports and other strategic assets would that be just "exerting influence on a rioting neighbor?" too? What if Israel did the same and then started sending thousands of troops to the Golan Heights within short range of Damascus?

What Russia is doing isn't in any way okay, but the question is if they are going to get away with it or not. Because of the whole Iraq/Afghanistan situation, the US doesn't really have the credibility to tell anyone to respect the sovereignty of another nation, which complicates this matter.

 

I'm not the only one making the comparision. Some very credible guys in the international community are doing the same. If you understood the propaganda in the Russian media right now you would see it.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Russian 1TV shows video of Ukrainians fleeing Ukraine to Russia.. with video at Polish border <a href="http://t.co/S736tVqf2o">http://t.co/S736tVqf2o</a> <a href="http://t.co/0cDQyLjyE1">pic.twitter.com/0cDQyLjyE1</a></p>&mdash; Russian Market (@russian_market) <a href="https://twitter.com/russian_market/statuses/440170729695612929">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Russian TV shows cars queuing to &quot;flee East Ukraine to Russia,&quot; is ACTUALLY average day on Polish border town Shegini <a href="http://t.co/LwtTcxM2jY">pic.twitter.com/LwtTcxM2jY</a></p>&mdash; Laura Mills (@lauraphylmills) <a href="https://twitter.com/lauraphylmills/statuses/440177341411504128">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

Quite an oversimplification there.

 

As far as I know, no one else anywhere has made this claim. No world body, no international election monitoring groups, etc. They've all said it was a fair and valid election. Even the opponent that lost did not ultimately challenge the results.

That's certainly true - and that's part of what makes this Russian action both more confusing and more complicated. Even without military force, Russia has the ability to basically crush the Ukraine through energy policy.

Absolutely. Understanding is different than agreeing. If you aren't interested in understanding the motivations behind someone else's actions, you're never going to be able to effectively counter them. The US response should be based on getting inside Putin's head and doing things that affect his strategic thinking rather than what might sound good to us because he's not necessarily motivated in the same way we are.

As far as ATW, he doesn't read my posts - he just follows me around throwing insults without showing any ability to debate or discuss a complex issue. He's incapable of understanding that the world is more nuanced than his fantasyland, and I openly call him a hateful bigot so he understandably doesn't particularly care for me.

I don't. If anything, the Georgia invasion from 2008 seems more Hitler-like than this one as of yet. That said, I think these kinds of comparisons are silly. No two world leaders are alike. There will never be another Hitler, just as there wasn't one before him. There will always be new evil leaders, and Putin may be one of them, but they will each their own unique motivations and methods and goals. Trying to fit people into a box like a previous leader seems both pointless and leads to bad decision making in response because it's simply not an accurate portrayal of the new guy. It's like fighting the last war.

If that's true, then that certainly changes things. But I don't see anyone else claiming that.

 

On the plus side, I think in this modern day and age where so many Russians are connected to the internet and world media, this kind of stuff doesn't work nearly as well and has far more potential to backfire.

 

When Germany first began invading it was of their excuses 'they speak our language yadda yadda yadda'

 

BINGO

 

Unfortunately the middle aged and older Russians aren't online and they have been fed anti-US propaganda their whole life. They have a soviet mentality and whatever mother Russia says they go with strongly. It's kinda like the tea party people - no matter how much evidence you give them they already have their mind made up.

 

Though Ukraine have done very little to "earn" the loyalty of the ethnic Russian Ukrainians. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Russia's economic growth and wealth generation for its citizens have far far outpaced that of Ukraine's. Currently the average income in Russia is over 4 times higher than that of Ukraine's, and not surprisingly Ukraine is in yet another recession.
In addition to the economic incompetence and the revolutions after revolutions, Ukraine somehow managed to become one of the few countries in the world that's consistently more corrupt than Russia.

 

Oh yes, I do read them.

I haven't seen you call me a hateful bigot before, but apparently you are a bit butthurt because I called out your dumbass post, so you are doing it now.

I can see that while you try to maintain a facade of reason and reflection, you just babble and, when called out on it, lash out just like everyone else.

Once again, rather than simply admitting that you were talking out of your ass and apologizing for your ridiculous statement, you keep up the "wannabe expert about everything" schtick.