[Uh-Oh]Israel and Gaza on the brink of all out WAR

You and the others blaming the victims need to stop, because ISRAEL IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE VIOLENCE:

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So, that we did. We drove the natives to near extinction and then started a country with the word "freedom" in its every slogan.

The difference here is that nobody can do anything about it. The same doesn't apply to Israel.

Don't you have some war criminal shrines to visit?

 

That's weird, given that they have at least some protection for Jews in their Constitution, they allocate a seat in Parliament for a Jewish member, and they have the 2nd largest population of Jews in the Middle East (behind Israel). Here's an interview with their Jewish member of Parliament:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/07/14/talking-to-iran-s-only-jewish-member-of-parliament/

Excerpts:


Schuh: What is the condition of the Jewish community in Iran?

Motamed: Fortunately we have no problem in the Jewish community’s living conditions. People often ask if there was any change after President Khatami’s was succeeded by President Ahmedinejad and if there was any change in conditions for religious minorities, especially Jews? We always answered that fortunately and happily, that there was no change, and we hope that there will be no change in a negative direction..

...

What is most difficult about life in Iran?

There is no difference between the way of life of the minority communities and the main body of the society, which means the Muslims.

A couple of years ago, it was reported that the Iranian government was going to force Jews to wear a star or marking on their clothes. What was the truth behind this?

Unfortunately, this was fake news published in a Canadian newspaper. I considered this news a big insult to the religious minorities of Iran. I refuted the story vigorously, , to the point that the source of the news and the Canadian government officially apologized to the Iranian government. The fake story was published in a newspaper following a resolution that was being talked about in Parliament on fashion and fabrics – and they twisted it.


Is your knowledge on this subject similar to your knowledge of polls and how they are all skewed and wrong? I wonder if all these people know they aren't allowed to exist in the country.

 

Dr. Tal is amassing a record of being wrong almost as much as basso.

 

I hope one day Israel is dissolved and that land is turned into a place where men from both religions can co exist. As a person in the middle without any bias its understandable why the Palestenians are so pissed. Hell I would be to if my homeland got taken away and I was forced to relocate. What most people don't understand is that before the Zionists arrived Jews Muslims and Christians lived fairly peacefully.

 

I know you don't want them there, and don't think they should have even been there in the first place. But forget that for a sec: Where do you want the Israelis to go now? Serious question. Just GTFO into space?



the arab nations refused to absorb the refugees while kicking out jews from their own countries who then moved to israel. the truth is the refugee problem is the fault of the arab nations who would rather keep them as refugees for political purposes.

if you had any understanding of the history of the situation you would understand the palestinians were not allowed back in after leaving (so their arab leaders could expell the jews living in israel). there wouldn't be any refugees if the arab nations opened their borders to them like israel did for the jews expelled from iraq, syria, egypt, yemen, and libya at the same time.

the war crimes.. you're saying it's not true that Hamas fires rockets from and hides in civilian areas to intentionally cause collateral damage?

 

Yea, i actually remember reading that was a huge misconception, nice digging it up.

 

You are completely and utterly full of ****. Have you ever read a book in your life? Do you ever Google or do you only rely on FoxNews?

 

Your new name should be trollanvor.

 

An absolute must read post.

 

No one wants them to go anywhere. Just quit building settlements on Palestinian land and quit cutting off supplies and demolishing their homes. But they keep displacing Palestinians and keep illegally building settlements. They want to provoke Palestinians to fire rockets and such so they can further their agenda of land grabbing under the pretense of "creating a buffer zone."

 

OK, I apologize, if this is the tone you wish to take. It is a considered one. My bad.

 

Jews live freely in Iran, while Palestinians are imprisoned by Israel in the West Bank, without the right of return. Women have freedom in Iran, while in Israel they are not permitted to pray at the Western Wall.

 

Jews are allowed into Iran and over 20,000 live in Iran. They are even represented in Parliament - their representation is no different than any non-Muslim in Parliament, so while not equal, it certainly has nothing to do with Judaism.

It's Israelis that are not allowed in Iran, and that's because the Iranian government does not formally recognize the Israeli government since it has engaged in terrorist attacks against Iran and Iranians. Also because it willingly acts as the agent and ally for the biggest threat in the region, while itself being the second biggest threat to the region by virtue of it being the only state stopping the Middle East from being a nuclear-free zone, and being the regional state which behaves least responsibly. Iraq has been the only other country in recent history to act with such aggression, especially outside its own borders.

How did your government react to having a nation financially aided and weaponized by your greatest threat near your borders? You almost began NUCLEAR WARFARE. You slapped them with sanctions and you continue to enforce those brutal sanctions against that country. You funded militias to start war and go in and rape and kill civilians. You funded their political enemies. You trained their fleeing criminals. You befriended their traitors. That's how you reacted and you are a secure, independent sovereign nation. Not a patch of land controlled by one group of rich ideologues surrounded on all sides by the enemy and allies of the enemy.

It is incredibly moronic for you to talk about travel restrictions when discussing a government like Israel's which legalizes the theft of homes, land and does not allow people whose families were born in that land to return to their home and reclaim their assets. A country which admits it kills a greater number of people (mostly civilians) in exchange for the victims of atrocities on its citizens committed by terrorists. A country which turns a blind eye to its settlers' terrorism against civilians in the West Bank, which does not launch any rockets AT ALL. A country whose interior minister yesterday said they want to bring so much death and destruction to Gaza that it will be sent back to the middle ages. A country that sent threatning text messages to civilians who have nowhere to go, no shelters and no borders, telling them that more death and destruction is coming. A country which just added upto 75,000 reserve troops to its current force, to face an army of 12,000 people who build their sole weapon, rockets, in their backyard. This is a terrorist army which has killed about 30 people through launching 10,000 rockets in 11 years - Israel has killed 40 people in the last few days alone. This is a country with one of the best airforces in the world, a top 10 "defense" force, and still manages to kill as many, if not more, civilians per target as the backwards Hamas.

Some of you tend to forget that Israel has already wiped large parts of Gaza and the West Bank off the map already when getting your panties in a wad. I know people who were born in cities that do not exist anymore. You have seen the maps. Australia has wiped dozens of nations off the map. America has wiped dozens of nations off the map. Canada. France. Britain. Or are we supposed to believe that since the inhabitants of North America did not have a recognized state that their tribal communities were not wiped away? Better yet, are we supposed to believe that Israel was created in a vaccuum, in a fresh piece of land where no people exist? Something had to be wiped off the map, the fact that today it's a state and back then it was land-owners does not make a difference. Any rational person would be opposed to both. Where is Bengal? Where is Abyssina? Where is Champa? Where is Gran Columbia? Rhodesia? Persia? Nations are wiped away all the time and for a huge variety of reasons.

It is very simple, child. This is war. You support war. You don't have to, but you want to. Like a competitive game of chess, the only time you don't support offense is after you've won and/or when it's not your turn. If you believe that giving Palestinian land for the creating of a Jewish home state was legitimate, then you believe in imperialism and colonization. This means you approve of the concept of owning land which you take by war. Most importantly, you approve a couple of other things by default:

- Your own nation's terrorism against the British to establish independence.
- Your own country's genocide against Native Americans to remove them as an obstacle.
- Your own country's brutal and sometimes genocidal attacks in nearby countries due to their alliances with potentially dangerous foreign interests and in the interest of protecting your citizens and your "interests".

Where is your oppostion to US atrocities? The Native Americans, Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, Iranians, Cubans, Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese, Iraqis, Iranians, Afghanis are wondering where your support for self-defense was? The British are wondering how the United States believes in colonization, but engaged in terrorism to stop being a British colony? Opposes the colonization of Kuwait by Iraq? Which is it? If you have supported both colonization and self-defense >> is there any other position which is more representative of war mongering? Is there any position to take which potentially kills more people? The answers are no and no.

So excuse the people of a besieged land in Gaza whose calories are counted by their captors, whose leaders are allowed to get richer through the siege, who literally can not pick up and go anywhereand who is surrounded by an enemy weaponized by your government... excuse them for flipping you a middle finger when you come preaching with your morality. Excuse them for the "WTF?" face when their own leaders/aggressors try to achieve their own Boston Tea "Party". It's like Saddam's Iraq telling another country to not act irrationally or immorally for *****'s sake.

If you don't give a **** about morality and only care about religion, then quit acting like it's anything else.

If you really give a **** about morality, how about you denounce all of it? There are many moral dimensions in this world. You can simultaneously denounce Israeli war and Palestinian terrorism of 2012. You can denounce Palestinian war and Israeli terrorism of the 1940's. You can denounce your own government's atrocities without hating your country. You don't have to choose a side. This is not a game where the rules are set by a leaflet from the manufacturer. Memorandums of Understanding between imaginary nation-states do not have to define your morals. You don't have to have faith in politics, it is not necessarily a faith-based game. Ask yourself if your country was more the way you want it when you went to war less often or now that you go to war more often?

Open your eyes. The fact that Hamas illegitimately and aggressively sends rockets into Israel is not appropriate justification for the Samson Complex which Israel displays in murdering a disproportionate amount of Palestinian civilians and sabotaging peace negotiations in the same way that Hamas tries to. Hamas engages in terrorism, its operations kill civilians, they are immoral and they are bad for Palestinian and Israeli people. This still does not justify the disproportionate reaction of Israel for decades now. Israel's disproportionate behavior effeftively eliminates the chance of peaceful leaders coming to the top, reducing the horrendous relationship between Israeli/Palestinian civilians, and the chances of a succesful peace process. Hamas is unfortunately not going to allow any of this to happen, and Israel's behavior will keep Hamas alive.

http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp

Have a look at those numbers. If you are human, the first thing that will catch your eye is 6,500. The second thing you will notice is that more Palestinians have died at the hands of Palestinians, than Israelis have died at the hands of Palestinians. Is this the "war" you're talking about?

 

Thank you

Yup, even the separation wall that Israel contructed (which was declared illegal by the World Court) is built on Palestinian land.

 

Do you also believe that the Fort Hood shooter "got provoked" to shoot people?

 

But do you believe in ethnic states or the rights to self-determination? Being Jewish is almost as much of a matter of ethnicity as it is religion these days - it was the development of a "No, even if you convert to Christianity, you're still a Jew" concept that led to the Holocaust. I've openly stated my utter disdain for that ideal, but I know a lot of people on this forum and the United States do.

You know, Mathloon, saying "If you support Israel, you support the American Revolution" isn't exactly an argument which is going to inspire people to not support Israel.

And frankly, Mathloon, you do support owning land you take through war. Everyone does. I hate playing the "Well, doesn't that mean we should all go back to where we immigrated from and give back our land to the Indians" card, but it's relevant with your argument. Practically no one alive today are the original owners of the land which they own. That's reality. Russia won't give up Siberia. China won't give up Tibet. Japan won't give up Hokkaido. Politics and international relation are based around force and power. Always have, always will be.

I'll get to that after kicking the neighbor's cat and reading more of your thought-provoking and original posts.

 

Not really into sugarcoating things to get people to not support Israel. The simple fact is that the US and Israel were born out of terrorism so ridiculously similar to Hamas that it's laughable to see people distancing themselves from the behavior of Hamas - an overtly aggressive and violent organization in posession of all the money and all the power in that land. The only difference is that the capabilities of parties differ and hence the results differ.

I don't support owning land through war, because I don't believe in nation-states, borders, visas, passports, institutional legitimacy, individual or institutional land ownership, etc.

That's besides the point. The point is that it's not my world. It's a non-ideal world with realities. The reality is that owning land through war is considered legitimate by the people who determine the world order, and especially by people denouncing Hamas and supporting Israel simultaneously on moral and political grounds. Politics and international relations, as you said, is and always has been based around force and power. Whether it will always be is a prediction which we will not live long enough to verify - just like any ideological belief... and just like any ideological belief, operating on this basis perpetuates its possibility/probability.

In any case, if you believe that politics and international relations should be based on force and power, you should have no problem with Hamas' behavior. After all, as I understand it you don't believe in human rights beyond American borders, don't believe much in them within the borders and don't believe that self-determination is a legitimate concept (please correct me if I've misunderstood you). Given this set of beliefs, the only gripe I can imagine you having with Hamas is that they may impact the development of American foreign interests at the expense of the Palestinian population.

In which case, my argument remains the same. If owning land through war is legitimate, then engaging in what is here deemed as terrorism is equally legitimate. Owning land through war is, by definition, terrorism. There is no moral or political argument for distinguishing Hamas. There is only a colonial/imperialist argument, and those arguments transcend the boundaries of legality and politics. By definition, there is no legal or political justification for invasion. This is why the world's imperialists and colonialists don't describe themselves as such and invest a tremendous amount of resources into averting those labels.

So if it was legitimate when Israel did it in the early to mid 1900's - and we both know they did it the same way, same amount - then it is legitimate now. If it was not legitimate then, it is not legitimate now. The fact that I reject both and (I think) you accept both doesn't alter the fact that it is supremely hypocrytical to reject one and accept the other. The fact is that those people support both, but they like the team that's winning since the winner fulfills their personal ideological prophecies, be it the return of Jesus or the "nascent empire" George Washington described.

Topic aside,

Spoiler

from my personal views to your personal views, I say there is no such thing as the "succesful" use of force and power without equal reprucussions/reaction except through deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in most, of the group on which you are trying to impose that force. So in the case of Native Americans, it "worked well". In the case of the Palestinians, it will have "succeeded" if Palestinians become 1-2% of the population. Otherwise, history does not forget, just like a holocaust of 6-7 million Jews did not "succeed" in Hitler's objective and was not forgotten in the sense of imposing Nazi Germany's force and power. There is a natural and inherent human instinct to reject force and seek an enemy when in fear. It does not go away. It manifests itself as a variety of psychological disorders (e.g. PTSD) and it festers in a poor socio-political climate (e.g. Mali).

That list of 40 people killed I posted - the majority of their families will not embrace peace. The 3,000 people who were killed on 9/11, most of their families will not embrace peace. America embraced peace less after 9/11. We can fight this nature, but one of two things will happen: humans will run out of resources to survive, or we will kill everyone in war using our new fancy weapons. I don't think the script you describe is one worth following because I believe we are among the first generations who can in fact experience a war which wipes out virtually the entire human race. No apocalypse, no armageddon, no day of judgement - just a complete destruction of the human race due to a few poor decisions made possible by the inflated ego of the self-assigned world police who claim to have it under control, as they have erroneously claimed so many times before. Just like end of the Persian, Islamic, Roman, British, whatever empire required exponentially more blood than their predecessors, I think perhaps there is not enough blood this time to accomodate the inevitable ugly demise of the American empire.

To say that there is no changing the path is something I don't believe, though the thought constantly crosses my mind. I believe that if we accelerate the development and distribution of security and education, there can be change. If humans exist long enough, I believe society will shift ultimately to a ground-up socio-capitalist democracy not imposed by legislation, rather by an aggressive globally popular opposition to anything else.

Now if you really just don't care about all that, then you don't care. But if you don't care, then why does the probability of eternal rule by force and power even factor into your ethos? You just do what you got to do as long as the consequences can be delayed past your life expectancy.

 

Mathloon, please get help.

I hear Dr. Fink in Houston might have appointments available.

 

I find it funny how people just want to tune out anything related to the Bible. There are two types of prophecies in the Bible: those that have been fulfilled and those that WILL BE fulfilled. There are very few left to be fulfilled. Here are a couple that we will probably see in our lifetimes:

1) Damascus in Syria will be destroyed

2) A group of Russia, Iran, Turkey, and numerous other Islamic nations will attack Israel and will utterly fail.



Maybe when these events happen it will open a few eyes.