And DaDakota's of the world like to make boring statements without the burden of self-critical analysis. Success in this world is about 85% the product of up-bringing, luck, and social conditions. Bill Gates is rich partly because he was smart, but mostly because he's lucky. The same's true with most people. Deny this all you want... but statistically and psychologically speaking, it's nearly irrefutable. If merit was really rewarded with profit, then it seems amazing that people who start out well, usually end up well. It also seems amazing that poor, urban blacks usually don't. Perhaps they're just inferior genetically, eh? DaDakota, you don't even bother to respond to my arguments. Try thinking, instead of just furthering your own self-interests, for once. I find it exceedingly odd that what you always belief just happens to be what's most beneficial for you, practically speaking. Nice to be so fortuitous in coincidence, isn't it? Must be absolutely terrific that the World Is Aligned So As to Benefit DaDakota.
Of course it is from my perspective, how else would I view it. Luck, yes that is it....it is all luck, forget the hard work the long hours, the constant worry, it is all luck. Crap, why am I doing all this work, why not just go to vegas and roll the dice since I am so lucky. I guess Haven, it is the bitter people like you who would rather just sit on your butt and let others take the risk and then complain about how other people actually make more then you and have to work less. Poor, poor, Haven. There is no such thing as luck, luck is defined when opportunity meets circumstance. Even winning the lottery is not lucky, someone took the RISK and bought the ticket. I don't have a problem with people making whatever the market bares. I do have a problem with whiners who say..."IT IS NOT FAIR" yet are not willing to get out and take a risk on their own, and if they fail, they get up, dust themselves off, and do it again. Everyone has an opportunity in the USA...EVERYONE !! Some are more fortunate then others, or start higher up the scale, but that does not stop people from succeeding, the only thing that stops people from being successful is NOT TRYING !!! Haven, your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of eddelberries, now go away or I shall taunt you a 2nd time. DD PS. Haven show me the stats that show all CEOs are simply lucky, you make a blanket claim that says statistically it is luck, and that is irrefutable, well back it up BABY !!!
So if the market beared that CEOs should make no more than twice as much as the average pay of its workers, you'd have no problem with that?
By definition, its irrelevant what one person thinks. The market theoretically represents the view of all people that would want to be CEOs balanced by the people that need CEOs. If the salary was only 2x an entry level, very few people would want the job, and companies would pay more. Now if that position only paid 2x, I wouldn't take it, but if there are enough people that would, then fine by me, let that be the market. All that means is that I personally would look for something else b/c the hard work/extra expense of an MBA/degree isn't economically justified. A good example might be sports. If salaries were only $100k, people would still do it. But if salaries at the top of a corp ladder was only $100k, very few people would do it.
Somehow this reminds me of when the USFL was awarded 3$. Anyway, Actors help me to feel something. I don't think that's overpaid. They impact more people and more change than any of us can imagine. As for CEO's, do they have a life? Probably lost a lot of it on the way to the top. I'll meet all of you at the end of the long road back to middle
Probably. I guess I just think that the market is getting out of hand. The gap between the ultra rich and the poor is widening. The middle class is shrinking with the majority getting poorer. No matter what you think about the market, that trend does not bode well for any of us. At some point, the compassion for people has to override our desire to increase our wallet size.
Only according to 18th century theorists . Viewing the market as some sort of all-efficient, self-generating entity ignores the underlying reality that economic power is self-perpetuating and influential with the market.
Phi Slamma, Interesting take. I think a lot of CEOs gave up their personal lives to make it to the top. I guess it comes down to a personal decision. As for me (my perspective coming Haven) I work hard to balance the 2, that is why my office is only 5 minutes from home, so that on very nice days, I can go home for lunch and spend an hour having a picnic with my family. It all boils down to priorities...no wait a minute, according to Haven it is simply luck, my bad. DaDakota
That might be extreme. What if pay for the average CEO was $2 million but the average middle manager made $500,000 and the average blue collar worker $80K? If the market really bore out salaries for those who deserved it, teachers would make 6 figures instead of an average of $20K per year or maybe the masters degrees my parents have really weren't worth it.
Teachers should be paid more for sure, but teachers had a choice to become teachers or to join the private sector. Teachers know going in that there are ceilings to their pay, they CHOSE to teach, and to take the security of a teaching job. Not to mention over 4 months off of work per year. (summer + christmas and holidays). It all boils down to choices, and if people are willing to take a risk, then they can reap the rewards or the pitfalls that come with risk. I have been involved in the founding of 2 companies, the first one got taken over in a hostile takeover from Microsoft, I didn't like it, but I did not whine about it, I simply moved on and started another company, and now we are being bought out, so hopefully, myself, my family and my employees are all going to be rewarded for their sacrifices. Which is EXACTLY why we went into business. Teachers are underpaid, until you look at the time off they have scheduled...I mean working 2/3 a year is not bad, is it? Summers to me, only means that it is hotter when I go to work. DD
Wait. You deny that, statistically speaking, wealthy children grow into wealthy adults, and that poor children are less likely to accumulate wealth later in life? You really deny this? That's all the stastical evidence I need. If you're not willing to stipulate it, I'll find a source. But I'd be shocked if anybody out there isn't aware of this. If this holds true, then one must take one of three positions: A. Poor people come from inferior genetic stock B. Social circumstances really do influence where we end up and, hence, nobody can be considered completely responsible for his own position. or C. Life isn't fair... but that's not my fault, and it's not society's place to redress it. Also, you completely dropped my argument concerning the power relationships inherent in the status quo. The market is not simply an abstract entity that represents some fundamental principle of economic truth. It's created by people.... and those with power have more influence than others. Incidentally, why am I bitter and lazy? My back-ground is upper middle class... and I have absolutely no reason to think that I'll do anything but better than my parents. UT Law class of 2005, baby . 88k starting median salary...
I see, you are a student. A sheltered animal still under the influence of other sheltered individuals who took the secure way of life, rather then the risk. Some people step up to the plate and swing for the fences, some are singles hitters. I will address the points I find relevant in the body of your quote. By the way Haven, do you have Student loans? Nothing like good ole Student loans to add some real life perspective. DD
Da: I don't know where you get your ideas about teaching, but you are quite a ways off. Most teachers work summer school to afford their rent, etc. Those that don't are still required to work 2 to 3 weeks beyond the close of school and 2 to 3 weeks prior to the opening. All Texas teachers are required to take continuing education during the summer usually amounting to at least a week or two of work. Many teachers take extra jobs outside of teaching as a way to make a living either during the summer or after school, usually tutoring. Teachers work from 7 to 4 on average but are nearly always at work on weekends attending school events - this is almost always a requirement - and they still have to grade papers. I remember my dad falling asleep grading homework for his kids. Christmas vacation has been whittled down to a little more than a week for most teachers because of inservice they are required to attend. Also, most teachers buy supplies for their classroom because the school will only provide so much. If they want to do anything creative, they have to buy their own. I realize it is a choice, but we are facing a VERY significant teacher shortage in this country. HISD is undertaking a massive campaign to hire new teachers. There is the fear that they could be in trouble filling classrooms over the next two years. The reason is simple: money. Teachers are fleeing to private industry jobs because they pay more. Maybe the most important job on the planet is educating our young yet the jobs are being vacated leaving teachers with only minimal skills left to fill them. That is, IMO, an extremely serious problem.
*yawn* And some people are machoistic lemmings who repeat truisms because they can't think critically. "We need defense!" "We're the big dog!" "I'm a home run hitter!" Too much libido, and not enough actual thought. You may address my points that you consider relevant... but your making yourself look like a fool by arguing against my main idea without even bothering to tackle assertions which eviscerate your position. Until you're like Major, TheFreak, etc, and willign to tackle even arguments that compromise your position... your position will not be substantiated. That's what makes them so difficult to argue with. When you pick and choose which points to respond to, while contesting your opponents entire idea... and you're not just responding in negation... you have utterly no way of making a case.
I see nothing wrong with executives making top dollar, if that's what the market can bear. Companies wouldn't pay them that much if they didn't think there was value in getting a top CEO, CFO, etc. I would like to see a greater emphasis placed into quality affordable and accessible education for all, so that women, minorities, and those coming from poorer homes are able to compete for top executive positions. I also think greater incentives need to be given to attract and keep teachers. I don't see how these ideas are incompatible. You don't have to tear down the value placed on executives to see the value of teachers, or any other profession for that matter.
I've been gone for a while...damn this thread has blown up! And how many individuals paid zero or actually received tax "refunds" on taxes they didn't even pay due to special tax breaks and credits: ever hear of EIC, etc.? There are tax breaks available across the spectrum, not only to corporations. Upbringing: Absolutely. However, this has little to do with how much money one makes. Haven, are you implying that only the wealthy can be brought up properly? Low-income families can still instill into their children values, dedication, education and hard-work. Luck: I think this Da already covered this one. Luck is when preparation meets, recognizes, and acts on opportunity. Opportunities are around every one of us, no matter how "lucky" or "unfortunate". The key is getting yourself into a position where you can seize the next one that arises (or better yet, to create your own opportunity). Social Conditions: I am not really sure what you mean by "social conditions"....could you please elaborate? Also, I noticed that you have these three comprising 85% of what success is made of...so I guess in your mind, dedication, personal sacrifice, and hard work make up less that 15%. You've got it all wrong, my friend. And I'm sick of people who claim they are stuck in their socio-economic situations because of something beyond their control. That's a damn shame. Although this guy has proven his worth enough to his boss to earn a nice salary, he was docked pay due to 'overwhelming' popular opinion? Media sensationalism and nothing more than class-envy here robbed a man of 20% of his wages. But then again, it's not really that surprising coming from a place like New Zealand. Aren't they the ones pushing the "Universal Basic Income" or social wages for everyone regardless of output? Yea, THAT will encourage people to work... So, doesn't this also mean that they are more qualified to be able to compensate the people they have hired to run their company in a manner that they feel is not only affordable, but allows them to remain profitable? Or are you implying here that a CEO might be paid generously not because he is worth it, but because he's "one of they guys"? And why EXACTLY do we have to take one of the three positions above? A. This is a ridiculous statement; how can one's social standing have anything to do with their genetics? And why exactly are we bringing genetics into this argument? B. Social circumstances might determine your "starting point" in life, but how can you claim that it determines where you will end up? If a "poor person" surrendered to "statistical evidence" and simply made excuses for their social position instead of applying themselves, how can we expect them to better themselves? If a "rich person" makes risky or bad decisions and didn't apply themselves, they too can end up at the bottom. C. No, life ISN'T fair. It might not be your fault, but it is your problem, not society's. Suck it up and deal with it. This is true from what I've seen...I know more than a few teachers who stuggled in their first few years of teaching and many worked 2nd jobs to compensate. Their situation tends to improve greatly over time (although this depends on where they teach) ...oddly enough, some of the "poorer" school districts pay much better that the "richer" ones... x34
I don't honestly have any problem with people making loads of cash, but I do have a problem when there isn't balance on both ends. I'd like to see a balance between the rich and the poor that showed more compassion for humans in general. It's one thing to make a boatload. It's another to neglect the people who don't.
Haven, All you have done is argue in circles, you have made leaps of faith to reach outrageous points all the while saying they are statistical facts. Yet, you fail to show the statistical facts you are talking about. I guess we should just take your word for it, and think that you are never wrong? I can understand that everyone wants the same chance to succeed in life, and that everyone does not begin at the same starting line. However, OPPORTUNITY is everywhere, and it is up to each individual to reach out and grab that brass ring. Take yourself for example, how are you paying for UT law school? Did you go in the military, student loans, etc...whatever it is I am sure that it has a cost/risk associated with it, and you are reaching for the brass ring. Now, if your parents paid for your education, then you are guilty of taking advantage of a better social standing starting point that you are arguing is the root of socio-economic problems. I personally see nothing wrong with helping your children acheive more in life then you do, I think that is all any of us want, financial security for ourselves and families. Jeff, You are correct about teachers, I don't think I was very clear on my points, I do think they deserve a raise, and I feel it is the most important job in the world. DaDakota PS Rocketman95 chimes in with another bit of useless dribble...to quote the Jim Rome show...HAVE A TAKE, and DON'T SUCK !! I don't really like the show, but the relevance of their motto fits RM95 and the lack of content in his posts lately.
