[Twitter Rumor] 3-way talks with Chicago, Houston and Utah?

W22_STREAK · Jul 22, 2009

saleem said:

I feel the same way and have been critical of him. His contract bothers me which leads to a bias.
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I've heard people not wanting to trade for Hinrich because of his contract. But I don't see it as a problem. Shane makes 7.6 million next season, and put that in perspective with Hinrich's 9.5 million next season it is fair value to the team that holds Hinrich. His contract is not as bad as people make it out to be. Its not even a hinderince for anyone for trading for him in my opinion.

He's only 28 and in his prime. His game doesn't rely heavily on his athleticsm so he'll be in his prime for at least another 3 years and even after that we won't be seeing a sharp decline.

His contract is

9.5 next season
9 01-11
8.5 11-12

so compared with someone like Chauncey Billups his contract is fair.

Battier for Hinrich!!!

komac · Jul 22, 2009

I don't think Battier for Hinrich is that good of a trade. Many bulls fans are tired of Hinrich's poor play, the guy doesn't dribble the ball that good, and he also takes terrible shots even worse than Artest did.

W22_STREAK · Jul 22, 2009

Hinrich makes terrible shots???

2009 playoffs:

Hinrich: 12.6 points per game, 46.8% fg%, 43.3 3pt%

Artest: 15.6 points per game, 39.4 fg%, 27.7 3pt%

I dunno about Bulls fans being frustrated at Kirk's play...but I know way more fans are frustrate Tyrus Thomas' play...and look whos the top prospect coming in to us in the rumored trade

komac · Jul 22, 2009

But not always the stats are telling the truth about a player. Yes, Hinrich looks just perfect for Morey, but I was just pointing out some of the things discussed on some Bulls boards I've read.

texascityman31 · Jul 22, 2009

I'll tell you why I like this trade for the Rockets. Shane and Carl's contracts run through 2011. By movng them it opens up the necessary cap space to sign a max player in 2010. It also allows them once they have signed that max player (which will take them up to the 50.6 mil $ cap) to have enough space under the luxury tax to resign Scola, make sure they have 2nd rd players like Budinger and James White signed, and possibly bring the foriegn point guard Llull to join the roster as a 3rd PG. My realistic target would be Joe Johnson to replace McGrady. Not to mention lost in a lot of this, the Young C we get from the Jazz Fesenko. He is only 21 with tons of upside and would add depth to or fragile center position. This is how I would see our roster in 2010-2011.

Starters: (minutes per game)

PF - Scola (28mpg)

SF - Ariza (33mpg)

C - Yao (32mpg)

SG - J. Johnson (38mpg)

PG - Lowry (28mpg)

Bench:

PG/SG - Brooks (27mpg)

SG/SF - Budinger or J. White (18mpg)

PF - Hayes (14mpg)

PF/C - D. Anderson (22mpg)

C - Fesenko

PG - Llull

tracygogogo · Jul 22, 2009

Porsche576 said:

http://twitter.com/SportsUnplugged
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TyThomas~~

peleincubus · Jul 22, 2009

texascityman31 said:

I'll tell you why I like this trade for the Rockets. Shane and Carl's contracts run through 2011. By movng them it opens up the necessary cap space to sign a max player in 2010. It also allows them once they have signed that max player (which will take them up to the 50.6 mil $ cap) to have enough space under the luxury tax to resign Scola, make sure they have 2nd rd players like Budinger and James White signed, and possibly bring the foriegn point guard Llull to join the roster as a 3rd PG. My realistic target would be Joe Johnson to replace McGrady. Not to mention lost in a lot of this, the Young C we get from the Jazz Fesenko. He is only 21 with tons of upside and would add depth to or fragile center position. This is how I would see our roster in 2010-2011.

Starters: (minutes per game)

PF - Scola (28mpg)

SF - Ariza (33mpg)

C - Yao (32mpg)

SG - J. Johnson (38mpg)

PG - Lowry (28mpg)

Bench:

PG/SG - Brooks (27mpg)

SG/SF - Budinger or J. White (18mpg)

PF - Hayes (14mpg)

PF/C - D. Anderson (22mpg)

C - Fesenko

PG - Llull
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great post. anyway we can trade out johnson for d wade? now theres a team

jopatmc · Jul 22, 2009

Hinrich is a fit on an Adelman team. He can handle. He gives up the rock and doesn't try to control the dribble. He can flat out shoot it from distance when open. He is a great perimeter defender at the point, top 5 defender at the point in this league. He is a very good passer. And his bball iq is off the charts. No, he is not super explosive and he cannot dominate a game the way that Rose or other top flight point guards can. But he is a very, very effective player and would be a great fit in an uptempo offense designed around bball smart players who move, cut, and move the basketball. I'm not saying we should trade for him. But if he wound up on our team with Adelman, he would be a very productive player for us.

Hayesfan · Jul 22, 2009

What the heck is freaking fascination with Hinrich by the people on this board? Just say no people! Listen to Nancy Reagan!!

roslolian · Jul 22, 2009

BimaThug said:

snip

But Hayes does have a huge butt. He mentioned it himself and credited it for his ability to box out people, and was the topic of discussion in an article in the Chron during his early years in the league. I'm too lazy (and inept) to get the exact article without devoting a lot of time to it but if you insist I can search for it.

Regarding Kirk, you yourself conceded that a huge part of his paltry 9.9 pts per game was because he was playing out of position. And yet you want him to play sg here full time? Why would we bring him in knowing he wouldn't be playing in a position that doesn't bring out his true potential?

I admit I didn't realize Heinrich was playing hurt last season, the times I caught a Bulls game all I saw was a gimpy white dude getting destroyed on D. However I sincerely doubt that even when fully recovered Heinrich can shut down the premier Sgs in the league on a daily basis the way Battier can.

I don't see how Heinrich can be a Moreyball type of player at all. $Ball as the name implies is all about the money, you can't take the monetary value away because then it wouldn't be moneyball. In a vacuum all players are pretty good-they wouldn't be playing pro basketball otherwise (yes even Starbury and Ryan Bowen). Its when you match the salary you're paying that person in comparison to his productivity that you only see whether a player is valuable or not, and that's what one the things Morey is trying to do, be able to accurately put a value on a player's skill (hence offering 2-4 million for the Polish hammer and walking away when he asked for more than that).

For better or worse, Heinrich is being paid 9 million dollars, 2 million more than what Battier (one of the top defensive players in the league) makes. Since Heinrich is already 28 I highly doubt the age diffenence has an impact at all, and just like Heinrich Battier's game doesn't depend on athletecism as well. The reality is Heinrich is overpaid, and unless the Rox get something really really good in return I doubt we'll part with Battier in a trade with Heinrich as the centerpiece.

My personal opinion is that Battier has a lot of gas left in the tank, and if we use Bruce Bowen as a model then Battier will be in the league for half a decade more at least. Getting rid of him just because "he's old" doesn't make sense, not unless you're going to be all out rebuilding ala Grizzlies or T-wolves. Most of the people here only want 1 rebuilding year, and yet they are proposing trading away our already productive role players for relative unknowns or overpaid young players.

I hate to burst the bubble but having capspace doesn't guarantee we will get a max player in 2010. In the first place the teams these stars belong to will be doing everything in their power to keep their players. If we get rid of our guys just to clear space do you think it will be enticing to the free agents at all? Why the hell would you go to a team with a broken down Yao Ming and nothing else when you can resign with your old team for the same (maybe more) amount of money? On the other hand if we keep the players we have we will have a team that just needs a star player to get us over the hump. With things the way they are one of the upper tier players won't get the money they want. We can play the waiting game and get top-notch players at a discount, espcially if we have a competitive team going on (see Ariza signing).
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leebigez · Jul 22, 2009

roslolian said:

BimaThug said:

snip

But Hayes does have a huge butt. He mentioned it himself and credited it for his ability to box out people, and was the topic of discussion in an article in the Chron during his early years in the league. I'm too lazy (and inept) to get the exact article without devoting a lot of time to it but if you insist I can search for it.

Regarding Kirk, you yourself conceded that a huge part of his paltry 9.9 pts per game was because he was playing out of position. And yet you want him to play sg here full time? Why would we bring him in knowing he wouldn't be playing in a position that doesn't bring out his true potential?

I admit I didn't realize Heinrich was playing hurt last season, the times I caught a Bulls game all I saw was a gimpy white dude getting destroyed on D. However I sincerely doubt that even when fully recovered Heinrich can shut down the premier Sgs in the league on a daily basis the way Battier can.

I don't see how Heinrich can be a Moreyball type of player at all. $Ball as the name implies is all about the money, you can't take the monetary value away because then it wouldn't be moneyball. In a vacuum all players are pretty good-they wouldn't be playing pro basketball otherwise (yes even Starbury and Ryan Bowen). Its when you match the salary you're paying that person in comparison to his productivity that you only see whether a player is valuable or not, and that's what one the things Morey is trying to do, be able to accurately put a value on a player's skill (hence offering 2-4 million for the Polish hammer and walking away when he asked for more than that).

For better or worse, Heinrich is being paid 9 million dollars, 2 million more than what Battier (one of the top defensive players in the league) makes. Since Heinrich is already 28 I highly doubt the age diffenence has an impact at all, and just like Heinrich Battier's game doesn't depend on athletecism as well. The reality is Heinrich is overpaid, and unless the Rox get something really really good in return I doubt we'll part with Battier in a trade with Heinrich as the centerpiece.

My personal opinion is that Battier has a lot of gas left in the tank, and if we use Bruce Bowen as a model then Battier will be in the league for half a decade more at least. Getting rid of him just because "he's old" doesn't make sense, not unless you're going to be all out rebuilding ala Grizzlies or T-wolves. Most of the people here only want 1 rebuilding year, and yet they are proposing trading away our already productive role players for relative unknowns or overpaid young players.

I hate to burst the bubble but having capspace doesn't guarantee we will get a max player in 2010. In the first place the teams these stars belong to will be doing everything in their power to keep their players. If we get rid of our guys just to clear space do you think it will be enticing to the free agents at all? Why the hell would you go to a team with a broken down Yao Ming and nothing else when you can resign with your old team for the same (maybe more) amount of money? On the other hand if we keep the players we have we will have a team that just needs a star player to get us over the hump. With things the way they are one of the upper tier players won't get the money they want. We can play the waiting game and get top-notch players at a discount, espcially if we have a competitive team going on (see Ariza signing).
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I'm not advocating trading for Kirk, but his best ball is far better than shane's best ball. Kirk is a high quality guard. He can play the pg or he can play off guard. He makes 9m which is a million or so mor than shane, but unlike shane, kirk has proven to be a much better playoff player. Fact of the matter, he's a better regular season player also. Like I've said, stop bsing and get the rebuild going. Get young and more athletic without taking back long term contracts. The intial so called rumor involving the rockets getting thomas, a young improving jumping jack who a lot of non basketball watching poster want to refer to as stromile swift v.2 and getting a young 7ft er who is cheap and seems to be getting better sounds pretty good to me. Ariza can do everything shane can do and some. Fasenko can be part of the 5 rotation on the front line. He's big,strong,mobile, and young. With the trade idea, the rockets would win 30 games. Keeping Shane and landry, the rockets will win 34 games. What's the difference other than lotto positioning? At least the young guy get to find their way and develop some chemistry. Then in the offseason, you have some sign and trade options and cap room.
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saitou · Jul 22, 2009

Hayesfan said:

What the heck is freaking fascination with Hinrich by the people on this board? Just say no people! Listen to Nancy Reagan!!
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Blame JVG! 5 years and still fascinated!
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=72642

djohn2oo8 · Jul 22, 2009

don't know if this has been posted, but here are pics from the RPD Auditions
http://www.chron.com/sports/photogallery/Rockets_Power_Dancer_tryouts.html#17608550

mob16151 · Jul 22, 2009

saitou said:

Blame JVG! 5 years and still fascinated!
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=72642
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Read the first page of that old thread only but it was still a lot of fun...

BimaThug · Jul 22, 2009

roslolian said:

BimaThug said:

snip

But Hayes does have a huge butt. He mentioned it himself and credited it for his ability to box out people, and was the topic of discussion in an article in the Chron during his early years in the league. I'm too lazy (and inept) to get the exact article without devoting a lot of time to it but if you insist I can search for it.

Regarding Kirk, you yourself conceded that a huge part of his paltry 9.9 pts per game was because he was playing out of position. And yet you want him to play sg here full time? Why would we bring him in knowing he wouldn't be playing in a position that doesn't bring out his true potential?

I admit I didn't realize Heinrich was playing hurt last season, the times I caught a Bulls game all I saw was a gimpy white dude getting destroyed on D. However I sincerely doubt that even when fully recovered Heinrich can shut down the premier Sgs in the league on a daily basis the way Battier can.

I don't see how Heinrich can be a Moreyball type of player at all. $Ball as the name implies is all about the money, you can't take the monetary value away because then it wouldn't be moneyball. In a vacuum all players are pretty good-they wouldn't be playing pro basketball otherwise (yes even Starbury and Ryan Bowen). Its when you match the salary you're paying that person in comparison to his productivity that you only see whether a player is valuable or not, and that's what one the things Morey is trying to do, be able to accurately put a value on a player's skill (hence offering 2-4 million for the Polish hammer and walking away when he asked for more than that).

For better or worse, Heinrich is being paid 9 million dollars, 2 million more than what Battier (one of the top defensive players in the league) makes. Since Heinrich is already 28 I highly doubt the age diffenence has an impact at all, and just like Heinrich Battier's game doesn't depend on athletecism as well. The reality is Heinrich is overpaid, and unless the Rox get something really really good in return I doubt we'll part with Battier in a trade with Heinrich as the centerpiece.

My personal opinion is that Battier has a lot of gas left in the tank, and if we use Bruce Bowen as a model then Battier will be in the league for half a decade more at least. Getting rid of him just because "he's old" doesn't make sense, not unless you're going to be all out rebuilding ala Grizzlies or T-wolves. Most of the people here only want 1 rebuilding year, and yet they are proposing trading away our already productive role players for relative unknowns or overpaid young players.

I hate to burst the bubble but having capspace doesn't guarantee we will get a max player in 2010. In the first place the teams these stars belong to will be doing everything in their power to keep their players. If we get rid of our guys just to clear space do you think it will be enticing to the free agents at all? Why the hell would you go to a team with a broken down Yao Ming and nothing else when you can resign with your old team for the same (maybe more) amount of money? On the other hand if we keep the players we have we will have a team that just needs a star player to get us over the hump. With things the way they are one of the upper tier players won't get the money they want. We can play the waiting game and get top-notch players at a discount, espcially if we have a competitive team going on (see Ariza signing).
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Excellent points, roslolian. Like leebigez, I am not necessarily advocating for a Battier-Hinrich deal (especially since Battier is my favorite player on the planet). I am just defending Kirk Hinrich, the basketball player, from unwarranted attacks on his skill level. Like leebigez, if Hinrich ended up on the Rockets, I wouldn't have too big a problem with his moderately hefty contract, since his production under Rick Adelman (again, maybe not even in the conventional statistical sense) would be very good.

Also, while I agree that Moneyball is a lot about getting talent on the cheap, I also think that it involves taking opportunities to get talent that is undervalued on the basketball court, even if the salary is a little high. Shane is a good example of this. To many observers, paying a guy $6-7M per season when he's only averaging 8 ppg is insane. The same can be said for Hinrich at $9.5M and 9.9 ppg. But the intrinsic BASKETBALL VALUE is there. If the Bulls would give him away for a package of expiring contracts of crappy players like Brian Cook, for example (not that Chicago would ever really do that), then Morey would likely be all over that deal.
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cardpire · Jul 22, 2009

BimaThug said:

Also, while I agree that Moneyball is a lot about getting talent on the cheap, I also think that it involves taking opportunities to get talent that is undervalued on the basketball court, even if the salary is a little high. Shane is a good example of this. To many observers, paying a guy $6-7M per season when he's only averaging 8 ppg is insane. The same can be said for Hinrich at $9.5M and 9.9 ppg. But the intrinsic BASKETBALL VALUE is there. If the Bulls would give him away for a package of expiring contracts of crappy players like Brian Cook, for example (not that Chicago would ever really do that), then Morey would likely be all over that deal.
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i'm not good at tistics. can sumbody reel smartlike such as yerself tell me how minny cumbined champeeyunships billee beans and darril morree have ukkowntid four? also, i prolly cant cownt that high, but how minny times hav theyre teems wun 2 playoff seereezes?

Naija Texan · Jul 22, 2009

Strange we have a 20+ page thread on getting Heinrich, when most people on this board a couple of days ago had given up on this season. I mean if it was a Chris Paul, Deron Williams or even the PG from Philly, I could understand but we are talking about a guy that as best is a very good role player along the same lines of Rafer Alston with maybe a better shot but without the ball handling ability.

BimaThug · Jul 22, 2009

cardpire said:

i'm not good at tistics. can sumbody reel smartlike such as yerself tell me how minny cumbined champeeyunships billee beans and darril morree have ukkowntid four? also, i prolly cant cownt that high, but how minny times hav theyre teems wun 2 playoff seereezes?
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Sure thing. The combined champio . . . Wait a minute . . . I'm beginning to suspect that you're not really being serious here . . . In fact, I'll bet some of those spelling errors were INTENTIONAL!!!

Nobody likes a hater.

roslolian · Jul 22, 2009

BimaThug said:

Also, while I agree that Moneyball is a lot about getting talent on the cheap, I also think that it involves taking opportunities to get talent that is undervalued on the basketball court, even if the salary is a little high. Shane is a good example of this. To many observers, paying a guy $6-7M per season when he's only averaging 8 ppg is insane. The same can be said for Hinrich at $9.5M and 9.9 ppg. But the intrinsic BASKETBALL VALUE is there. If the Bulls would give him away for a package of expiring contracts of crappy players like Brian Cook, for example (not that Chicago would ever really do that), then Morey would likely be all over that deal.
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I guess this quite true as well. Considering how much Morey hardballs though I doubt we get Heinrich's contract unless we get a heck of a sweetener.

To be quite honest the more I think about it the more I doubt we're gonna make any more moves till mid season. Should T-mac and Budinger (or JT or White) contribute to the rotation at all we have no more space at either wing positions, and getting yet another backup center would be redundant with Andersen, Hayes and Dorsey still on the roster. If a trade comes up IMHO it would be an upgrade trade, wherein we get rid of a combination of our players and get a much better player in return. I really just don't DM trading players away just for capspace, otherwise Les wouldn't have spent all that money for talent when we'd be getting a lotto pick in a much deeper draft the next year anyway.

Bob Sacamano · Jul 22, 2009

BimaThug said:

Also, while I agree that Moneyball is a lot about getting talent on the cheap, I also think that it involves taking opportunities to get talent that is undervalued on the basketball court, even if the salary is a little high. Shane is a good example of this. To many observers, paying a guy $6-7M per season when he's only averaging 8 ppg is insane. The same can be said for Hinrich at $9.5M and 9.9 ppg. But the intrinsic BASKETBALL VALUE is there. If the Bulls would give him away for a package of expiring contracts of crappy players like Brian Cook, for example (not that Chicago would ever really do that), then Morey would likely be all over that deal.
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'Taking opportunities to get talent that is undervalued on the basketball court' is not some unique philosophy. It's basically a general manager's job description. You think GM's were going after overvalued talent, and then Morey came along with this revolutionary idea to go after undervalued talent instead? I posted this in another thread the other day:

Bob Sacamano said:

I hear all these people saying Moneyball is about finding the Shane Battier's of the world. Guys who are fundamentally sound, and do the little things that don't show up in the box score.

But really, the Moneyball system that Billy Beane developed with the Oakland A's is the complete opposite of that. Those A's were famous for NOT being fundamentally sound, and NOT doing the little things. They rejected the very notion of 'intangibles', and baseball purists couldn't believe it.

They didn't bunt, they didn't steal, they didn't move runners over or take the extra base. They struck out more than any other team. And they didn't play great defense. All Billy Beane cared about was OPS. They basically had a bunch of guys who did nothing but hit for power, draw walks, and strike out. Like baseball versions of Von Wafer.
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