I understand this, and I'm not saying that they "deserve" more slack for TOs, but it's not true that they are not crucial.
That's hilarious. The poster puts up the statistics in an attempt to prove that Yao has too many turnovers per game... but the evidence seems to indicate that relative to other dominant players at his position, Yao actually has very few turnovers.
Very True, i mean a center that gets the ball alot and gets double teamed and has to try and pass out or gets the ball slapped out of his hands resulting in a turnover is one thing, that happens to a lot of players. But when you sit there and dribble and go between the legs behind your back and loose the ball, or they just rip you, that's the turnovers that we can't have happening. Everyone has turnovers but from the point position. you can argue that Jason Kidd has a lot of turnovers but he gets a lot more assists for his teammates. Im a rockets fan not a YOF or SOF so i just say it how i see it.
nice post, I think JJ has that problem of stepping out of bounds. does anyone know how to improve it?
He just likes to shoot from the corners and unfortunatley damn out of bounds on the corners is so close to the three point line. A lot of coaches hate that fact and want it changed but i don't think it is going to happen. I have seen a big number of his turnovers come from this.
not really. yao averages 2.23 to's while averaging 15.5 points and 1.5 assists whereas hakeem, in his career, averaged 3.03 to's with 22.5 points and 2.5 assists. so hakeem beats yao by about 50% on pts/asts but only 33% on to's. i didn't look up shaq and duncan but if hakeem averaged more to's than those two you would assume the numbers would be at least as skewed toward yao being turnover prone, if not more. to/min is a nice measure, but i would say it's obvious that turnovers vs production/responsibility within the offense is more telling. bo outlaw could play all 48 minutes in a game and i still wouldn't expect him to turn it over much b/c he doesn't have to actually do anything in the offense.
Oh, come on. You're using Juugie logic. 1. At the very least, use Yao's performance this year as your stat measurement. Using his rookie measurements kind of meaningless, because I think we could all agree that Yao had many problems last year that made him a less than terrific option. 2. This year, he's not turning the ball over much. Evalute how he's playing this year, please, relative to other players at his position. 3. When Hakeem played, you couldn't play zone. A good many of Yao's turnovers come on the soft zone. Hell, remember how Hakeem fared against the Sonics a good bit of the time? Still, I think it's best to compare his TO #'s to post-zone players.
God how i hated the sonics almost zone defense that was hardley called all the time. I would sit there and scream at the TV for illegal D...but did they call it NOOOOOO.
At this point in his career, I'd say that Yao has made some great passes, but he is not yet a great passer. Too often, he'll try to force it into coverage. It's not all his fault, the spacing is usually bad or the cuts aren't quick enough. But he shouldn't be making those passes. Especially when his vision is supposed to be so good. Also when big guys in the low post pass the ball out of the double team, the ball usually gets swung over to the other side for the shot, so even though Yao's prescence led to the open shot, he wouldn't get credit for the assist. Big men that rack up assists usually are in a system with good spacing and precise cuts like Shaq in the triangle, or are getting it from the high post by handing off to shooters, or hitting guys for the backdoor layup like Brad Miller and Sabonis.
Turnovers meaning less for a center is somewhat true, seeing how several TO's occur right after a rebound or bad pass etc... TO's for the Rockets generally means more given that they have relatively low scoring, half-court (less possession) games. Either way, the numbers are unacceptable
feel free to disagree with my method but i simply did (pts + 2*ast)/TO. i could've done (FG + AST + FT/2)/TO, essentially successful scores created per turnover, but the other way was easier to do quickly. so the numbers are... this year: yao: 8.64 shaq: 9.33 duncan: 10.39 if you want to use the 2nd year as a measuring stick: yao: 8.64 shaq: 12.63 (wow) duncan: 9.14 hakeem: 9.59 career numbers: yao: 8.34 shaq: 11.38 duncan: 9.45 hakeem: 9.08 so whether you want to use zone players, 2nd year players, or career players, yao trails the 3 people mentioned at every point. i'm not exactly sure how i used Juugie logic other than i said something that puts yao in a bad light. i'm simply using the stats that are out there. if it makes you feel better, i'll say steve is really turnover prone, but then we already knew that.
We all know TD and SHAQ were more NBA 'ready' when they entered the league. So what? better think about Potential.
wtf! why can't people just say yao turns it over more than those guys and move on. is it that hard. he may go on to average one turnover a game for the rest of his career, but as of now he is slightly to much more turnover prone than the 3 big men that were first mentioned in this thread.
gucci888, You misunderstand what A-Train is trying to say. You are taking the word "crucial" and blowing it out of proportion. So, yes, while it's techically true that ALL turnovers are *important (crucial).* What A-Train is trying to say is that TO for a Center are not a good measurement of their total game because of the way (situational) they acquire turnovers. So, when he says that they are not "crucial" he means that it's not AS important stat as say a POINT GUARD or SHOOTING GUARD.
That's true. I think the best example of a passing center is Vlade Divac and Brad Miller. Divac: 5.8 apg, 2.3 topg Miller: 4.4 apg, 2.0 topg I'd say that as long as Yao keeps his TO below 2.5, he'll be fine. Especially since he'll be contributing with POINTS to off-set his *low assist.* Maybe next year he'll break 20ppg. If anything, he can sure can work harder on improving is his assist. But of course we'd need guards that actually move without the ball.
"feel free to disagree with my method but i simply did (pts + 2*ast)/TO. i could've done (FG + AST + FT/2)/TO, essentially successful scores created per turnover, but the other way was easier to do quickly. so the numbers are..." Better using ratio of touch/turnover.
