Turkey to seek parliament approval for Iraq incursion

How is this like Yugoslavia?

 

Iraq is an arbitrarily defined state that is an amalgamation of different cultures squished together and was once held together by a strong central leader with forceful state police apparatus. The leader and his regime have disappeared, and without the central force the ethnic groups are separating like oil in water and fighting over who gets what. Nobody wants to play together any more.

 

I dunno. You definately might know better than I as I am working off entirely third party descriptions and sources, but I remember reading this very prominent story in the WaPo on Monday which didn't make it sound as you describe.

[rquoter]

Top Iraqis Pull Back From Key U.S. Goal

Reconciliation Seen Unattainable Amid Struggle for Power


By Joshua Partlow
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, October 8, 2007; Page A01

BAGHDAD -- For much of this year, the U.S. military strategy in Iraq has sought to reduce violence so that politicians could bring about national reconciliation, but several top Iraqi leaders say they have lost faith in that broad goal.

Iraqi leaders argue that sectarian animosity is entrenched in the structure of their government. Instead of reconciliation, they now stress alternative and perhaps more attainable goals: streamlining the government bureaucracy, placing experienced technocrats in positions of authority and improving the dismal record of providing basic services.

"I don't think there is something called reconciliation, and there will be no reconciliation as such," said Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih, a Kurd. "To me, it is a very inaccurate term. This is a struggle about power."

Humam Hamoudi, a prominent Shiite cleric and parliament member, said any future reconciliation would emerge naturally from an efficient, fair government, not through short-term political engineering among Sunnis and Shiites.

"Reconciliation should be a result and not a goal by itself," he said. "You should create the atmosphere for correct relationships, and not wave slogans that 'I want to reconcile with you.' "

The acrimony among politicians has strained the Shiite-led government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki close to the breaking point. Nearly half of the cabinet ministers have left their posts. The Shiite alliance in parliament, which once controlled 130 of the 275 seats, is disintegrating with the defection of two important parties.

Legislation to manage the oil sector, the country's most valuable natural resource, and to bring former Baath Party members back into the government have not made it through the divided parliament. The U.S. military's latest hope for grass-roots reconciliation, the recruitment of Sunni tribesmen into the Iraqi police force, was denounced last week in stark terms by Iraq's leading coalition of Shiite lawmakers.

"There has been no significant progress for months," said Tariq al-Hashimi, one of Iraq's two vice presidents and the most influential Sunni politician in the country. "There is a shortage of goodwill from those parties who are now in the driver's seat of the country."

Iraqi leaders say there are few signs that Maliki's government is any more willing to share power now than 15 months ago, when he unveiled a 28-point national reconciliation plan. A key proposal then was an amnesty for insurgents -- an "olive branch," Maliki said at the time -- to bring members of the resistance into the political fold.

But over the summer and fall of 2006, sectarian violence rose to its highest levels, driving thousands of people out of mixed neighborhoods and pushing Sunni and Shiite politicians further apart. The amnesty never materialized, nor has the reconciliation.

Some politicians remain hopeful. Hashimi, the Sunni vice president, recently drafted what he calls the "Iraqi National Compact," a 25-point statement of principles that condemns all types of extremism and sectarian discrimination.

Hashimi's statement calls for candid dialogue among Iraq's various factions. On Sept. 27, he met with the country's most respected Shiite religious leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, a rare and symbolic gesture that underscored the possibility of cooperation across the sectarian gap. Hashimi said Sistani expressed support for the national compact while requesting minor editing of the document.

"I have started from scratch. I know that," Hashimi said. "This will create a new environment between the Iraqi politicians to talk on sensitive issues face to face in an attempt to alleviate the reciprocal paranoia between the Iraqi sects and ethnic groups."

But Hashimi said he sensed no fundamental willingness from Maliki's government to reconcile with the Sunnis. It has been two months since the largest Sunni coalition walked out of the cabinet when its list of 11 far-reaching demands were not met. Hashimi acknowledges some progress on the demands -- such as a program for releasing prisoners during the holy month of Ramadan -- but calls the steps insufficient.

"Pulling out from the government was not a target, it's just a means, a way to encourage the government to perform in a better way," Hashimi said. "The response of the government has been very, very slow."

Sunni leaders sense that their Shiite counterparts believe the era of Sunni leadership in Iraq is gone for good -- "that Humpty Dumpty had a fall and cannot be put back together again" as one senior Iraqi official put it -- and Sunnis should accept the new reality. Sunni leaders, however, tend to express more limited goals than reclaiming the government.

"I, as deputy prime minister responsible for the portfolio of security and services, until now, have never been consulted on any security operation taking place in Iraq," said Salam Z. al-Zobaee, Iraq's second-highest Sunni official. "The Sunnis, even if they've been participating in the government, are still marginalized in decision-making."

The idea of "reconciliation" in Iraq has always been short on specifics. To Sunnis, it tends to mean Shiites will release their grip on decision-making, allow them greater influence in the government, crack down on militants regardless of their sect and promote peaceful cooperation between politicians. Sunnis demand the release of thousands of prisoners who have never been charged, the purging of all militiamen from the Iraqi security forces and influence in military decisions.

To Shiites, reconciliation is a process fraught with risks that Sunni "supremacists" will attempt to seize their former position of authority over the majority Shiites. Many Shiites believe that reconciliation requires punishing those who, during Saddam Hussein's government, ruthlessly killed and repressed Shiites and Kurds.

"It's clearly perceived by the government that reconciliation is clearly a winner for the Sunnis and not a winner for the Shias," said Brig. Gen. Joseph Anderson, chief of staff for the second-ranking U.S. commander in Iraq. "The question becomes: How do you start balancing that scale a little bit?"

Many Shiites, still aggrieved by the crimes committed against them under Hussein, are not ready for new programs or legislation attempting to force a balance into existence.

"You cannot have reconciliation without justice, and justice has not been accomplished yet in Iraq. They have tried and executed not more than 10 people, Saddam and his people, and that is not enough," a senior Shiite government official said on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly. "The same people who were killing Iraqis at the time of Saddam in the name of the state and in the name of national security are doing it now with the insurgents."

Most of the U.S.-backed "benchmarks" for Iraqi political progress -- intended to push along reconciliation -- have so far not been reached. The government has not passed legislation that would govern the country's oil resources or allow former Baath Party members to reclaim government jobs, nor has it completed a review of the constitution or enacted an amnesty program. A recent report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office judged that only three of 18 benchmarks had been met.

"The polarization of Iraq's major sects and ethnic groups and fighting among Sh'ia factions further diminishes the stability of Iraq's governing coalition and its potential to enact legislation needed for sectarian reconciliation," the report concluded.

Several Iraqi officials say they are hamstrung by the very government structure they are operating within. In 2003, the U.S. government handpicked a 25-member Iraqi Governing Council -- including 13 Shiites and five Sunni Arabs -- that would mirror the population's majority Shiite makeup. In 2005, when voters chose political parties rather than individual candidates, politicians' loyalties to sect over any other criteria solidified.

The resulting Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish blocs emerged as the dominant political actors, with individual politicians subservient to the group. Leadership positions were parceled out in a de facto quota system to achieve at least nominal balance among the rivals.

This imperfect balance of power, deemed the "national unity government," entrenches these sectarian divisions and prioritizes a politician's ethnic or sect background above experience or ability, Iraqi officials say. The system makes selecting Iraqi ambassadors or cabinet ministers an exercise in horse-trading subject to bitter disputes.

"Iraq cannot be ruled by this notion of a national unity government, because that has been a recipe for paralysis," said Salih, the Kurdish deputy prime minister. "We need a government of majority, comprising the moderates, representing the key communities of Iraq and delivering to its constituents, and willing to take on the extremists."

The fragmentation of Iraq's leading Shiite coalition, while potentially leading to more instability, paralysis in parliament and gun battles in the streets, might be an opportunity to lessen the reliance of politicians on their sectarian blocs, one senior government official said.

"We need to break that mold of politics here, this politics where sectarian politics is the norm," the official said on the condition of anonymity because of concern about publicly supporting the disintegration of the Shiite bloc.

The Iraqi government plans to consolidate its cabinet and install skilled technocrats in place of inexperienced political appointees, officials said. Hamoudi, the Shiite member of parliament, said he expected that the 37 cabinet seats would be reduced to 22 or 23 in coming months. Certain public service ministries, such as Justice, Transportation, Health and Agriculture, would in theory become "independent" from political parties, he said.

"It's critical because now the feeling is that the national unity government has proven to be a failure in the region -- in Palestine, in Lebanon, and now in Iraq," Hamoudi said. "We need a strong government that conducts its duty and not that looks good."

Some potential progress toward reconciliation has run into recent trouble. The U.S. effort to recruit Sunni tribesmen to join the police force and fight the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq was strongly opposed last week by Shiite officials, who asserted that the Sunni recruits were killing innocent people under the guise of fighting insurgents.

"We demand that the American administration stop this adventure, which is rejected by all the sons of the people and its national political powers," the leading Shiite political coalition said in a statement. "Their elements are criminals who cannot be trusted or relied upon."

[/rquoter]

 

true but the PPK has been around for a long time causing problems for Turkey.

its sad that congress decided to vote on the armenian issue at this time (most likely a political move). it makes a precarious situation even more tense.

but i cant feel sorry for the administration bc they got us into iraq. i just feel bad for the military bc theyre caught in the middle of what may turn into WW3.

 

Turkey should not be stopped from taking action against these rebels...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055004.stmDozens die in Turkey border clash

The attack on Turkish troops was one of the deadliest for some time
At least 12 Turkish soldiers have been killed following an ambush by Kurdish rebels near the Iraqi border - with 32 rebels also killed, officials say.
The PKK guerrilla group claimed it had also taken "several" soldiers hostage, but this was denied by the government.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has called a crisis meeting in Ankara, which is likely to consider whether to attack PKK bases in Iraq.

But the defence minister said such action would not take place "urgently".

"There are plans to cross border" but "not urgently", Vecdi Gonul said after meeting US Defence Secretary Robert Gates in Ukraine.

On Wednesday, MPs voted overwhelmingly in support of a motion to allow the military to launch offensives across the border, against rebels based in the remote, mountainous north of Iraq.

It followed an escalation of raids by the PKK - the Kurdistan Workers' Party - as part of its armed campaign for Kurdish autonomy.




Turkey's tense border

Recent attacks blamed on the group have left more than 40 Turkish soldiers and civilians dead.

Iraq has urged Turkey not to strike across the border.

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, himself a Kurd, called on the PKK rebels to lay down their arms.

"But if they insist on continuing to fight, they should leave Iraqi Kurdistan and not create problems here," he said.

Iraq's parliament passed a motion condemning Turkey's threat of force, but also called for the PKK to leave Iraq.

Passengers wounded

In the latest attack shortly after midnight, a large group of PKK rebels crossed the border from Iraq and staged their assault near the village of Daglica in Hakkari province, the Turkish military said.

The army said it sent reinforcements and helicopters to the area, fired artillery and launched retaliatory attacks in which 32 guerrillas were killed.


Turkish demonstrators demanded action against the PKK

PKK sources confirmed the fighting, and claimed more troops were killed than the official figure of 12.

"There were clashes with the Turkish troops late last night in which we have killed at least 16 soldiers and wounded 20. We also captured several," Reuters quoted an unnamed rebel source as saying.

Turkey's defence minister denied that, saying: "There are no hostages."

Not far from the scene of the fighting, a minibus was later caught in a landmine explosion, also blamed on the PKK, that injured 10 civilians, the state news agency Anatolia said.

Thousands of Turks joined protests in several cities denouncing the attacks and calling for action against the PKK.

The prime minister said: "We are very angry."

But he said he was "resolved to deal with these matters in a cool-headed manner".

Increased pressure

About 3,000 PKK fighters are believed to be based in northern Iraq near the Turkish border, says the BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul.

THE PKK

Formed in late 1970s
Launched armed struggle in 1984
Dropped independence demands in 1990s
Wants greater autonomy for Turkey's Kurds
Leader Abdullah Ocalan arrested in 1999
Ended five-year ceasefire in 2004


Profile: The PKK

There have been regular clashes in the area since earlier in the year, but the latest attack was one of the deadliest for some time.


The clashes will increase pressure on the government from the public and the military for a tough response, our correspondent says.

The United States, Turkey's Nato ally, has called for restraint, fearing that any incursions would destabilise Iraq's most peaceful area - the autonomous Kurdish region in the north.

The White House decried the PKK's actions, saying: "These attacks are unacceptable and must stop now."

More than 30,000 people have been killed since the PKK began fighting for greater autonomy for the largely-Kurdish south-eastern Turkey since 1984.







Another article....Maliki has been talking the talk....but that's about it....something has to be done.







http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071021/ts_nm/turkey_iraq_maliki_dc



Iraq says taking "important steps" against PKK 2 hours, 56 minutes ago



BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraq's government said on Sunday it was taking important steps to end what it called the "terrorist actions" of Kurdish rebels who use its mountainous north as a base for attacks on neighboring Turkey.


Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki held urgent talks with his national security team after rebels of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) killed at least 12 Turkish soldiers and Turkey shelled northern Iraq.

The PKK said they had taken several soldiers hostage.

The prime minister's office said in a statement Iraq condemned the PKK. It said Iraq would work to secure the release of the hostages, although the rebels said they were not held in Iraq.

The security team discussed "the situation along the Iraqi-Turkish border and have taken important steps in relation to the activities of the PKK, which the government regards as terrorist actions," Maliki's office said.

It did not say what actions it planned to take. The Iraqi government has limited options to tackle the rebels, whose hideouts are in accessible mountainous terrain in Iraq's self- governing Kurdistan region where it has little sway.

The government has been angered by the recent actions of the PKK, whose attacks in southeastern Turkey have forced Iraq into conflict with its neighbor at a time when it is more concerned with quelling internal sectarian violence that has killed tens of thousands and displaced millions of Iraqis.

Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari told Reuters in an interview last week the government wanted the PKK to leave Iraq as soon as possible. Iraqi has repeatedly stressed it wants friendly relations and dialogue with its powerful neighbor.

 

Does someone want to tell me again how we're going to have major, secure bases that we can supply, without constantly fighting someone, in Iraq, long term? The Kurdish region is the obvious choice for them. How do you supply those bases with a potentially hostile "Iraqi government," and Turkey willing to close its land and sea routes to the North if they don't like what the Kurds are doing? Turkey has always acted in its own interest, whether we've liked it, or not.



D&D. Attempt to Be Civil!

Impeach Bush.

 

interesting article on time.com about the current situation.

it states that the kurdish region of iraq is basically its own autonomous country in everything but name.

turkey is fearful of turkish kurds declaring independence.

 

Good thread...Something to keep track of...

I have said, I'm for a reduction in force to "force" the hand of Iraqis to best decide how they choose to better themselves.

Special forces, smaller logistics, intel, intel, intel...That is how to better counter terrorist guerilla tactics...Not an archaic Rumsfield-esque big and slow and predictable elephant...

Let's use U.S. special forces and,...allow private specialists such as Blackwater to operate. Have an attachment for documentation to quell concerns of a he said versus he said...

I am absolutely for downsizing and withdrawal...

Considering the intangibles with Turkey, this definitely seems the best route to me...

I want the next President to implement this versus Bush the idiot...Fred? Hillary?

 

this is getting a little off topic but...

anyone know the legal ramifications of placing bounties on terrorist and letting blackwater and other private security companies hunt them down?

other than the "bad taste" im sure they could get the job done.

would the US catch flak from the international community? would they be breaking any international laws?

 

I don't know for sure, but I don't think placing specific bounties is necessary...I do know Blackwater has specific training against guerilla terrorist tactics much more than the common GI Joe...In addition they have weapons research that is just as good and perhaps better than U.S. government offering...I believe they can use effective hollopoints to put down insurgents quickly rather than the military which has to use FMJ rounds almost exclusively {which is more dangerous to innocent bystanders}...

As far as what the U.S. military can do: Downsize/withdrawal!...We don't need your mass or the slow, predictable, logistical bound catering money making offer to Halliburton (Halliburton gets a lot of money just on logistics, but that is another story)...

What we do need is your smaller efficiency and intel gathering...Use special forces groups....

Getting back to Blackwater, yes they should be monitored via videotape (as evidence) from a non-Blackwater attachment otherwise there will be claims on the oversight...

 

i cant agree with withdrawl... i do agree that spec ops/intel needs to handle the guerillas. but the military presence prevents a greater regional war from occuring. iraq is in crappy shape but there is improvement (although it is still crappy...) w/o the military, who knows what turkey, syria, and iran would have done to the kurds... or that saudi arabia and iran would do to each other...

 

The kurdish people are very interesting...There is a lot of them in Nashville, and the young folks "Americanize" themselves, while only few keep traditional dress wear...

I've talked to a young kurdish woman at work for a moment concerning this(fairly attractive, btw), and she states the Kurdish people don't do anything wrong and that they should have there own country, yadda, yadda...

It amused me because she spoke as if she had first-hand account knowledge...I was cordial and noddingly agreed as we spoke briefly on this, but it is hard to discuss this with someone with certain personal feelings...

 

The Turkish soldiers who were taken hostage are being charged because they didn't fight to the death. Crazy.

source

[rquoter]
Turkey Charges Freed Troops With Neglect

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) — Eight Turkish troops taken hostage by Kurdish rebels after a deadly ambush have been charged with neglecting their duty during the clash, a defense attorney said Sunday.

The Oct. 21 ambush, which killed 12 other soldiers, had increased pressure on Turkey's government stage a cross-border offensive against Kurdish rebel bases in northern Iraq — an operation the U.S. has discouraged for fear of destabilizing a relatively calm part of Iraq.

Rebels released the eight captive soldiers earlier this month. They were charged Saturday with "disobedience that could lead to a major catastrophe" and "undermining military discipline," said lawyer Ramazan Korkmaz, who represents the soldiers. Two of the soldiers also face a charge of "escaping abroad."

Rebels from the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, ambushed the soldiers in southeastern Turkey and held them hostage at a rebel base across the border in Iraq.

Fighting in the border area has claimed dozens of lives on the Turkish side — most of them soldiers — in less than two months. During the same period, at least 88 rebels have been killed, according to the Turkish military and media reports.

Korkmaz, who was not allowed to go through the court file but was present at Saturday's hearing, said the soldiers were accused of "not properly fulfilling their national duty."

The soldiers told the court that they had run out of ammunition and some of their weapons were not working when the rebels took them hostage, Korkmaz said. There was no further explanation of why the charges were brought.

Last week, Justice Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin suggested that the soldiers should have fought to the death rather than allowed themselves to be captured.

"I could not accept the fact that these soldiers went with the terrorists that night after the operation," Sahin said. "Our soldier is the one who ought to risk falling as a martyr while protecting his homeland."

Sahin stopped short of saying the men had surrendered, however.

Shortly after the soldiers' return to Turkey, local media here said that they were being interrogated by military authorities. They are being held in a military prison in the eastern province of Van, and it was not immediately clear when they would appear in court again.

Korkmaz said the disobedience charges carry a sentence of up to 10 years in prison. Charges of escaping abroad would add another five years, he said.

Ibrahim Cagan, the father of one of the soldiers, said Sunday he did not know his son was imprisoned until he saw news reports, and that he and his son had not been able to communicate since his release by the rebels.

"I am very sad," said Cagan. "I am calling on our heroic army to release my son."

Turkey has fought since 1984 against the rebels of the PKK, which the United States and the European Union label a terrorist organization. Tens of thousands of people have been killed in the fighting.

The government has received authorization from Parliament to hit PKK bases in neighboring Iraq. It has massed tens of thousands of troops along the border to block rebel infiltration and to prepare for a possible cross-border operation.

[/rquoter]