Trump, the Fools that Voted for Him, and the Fools that Stayed Home

Actually I did visit her website several times. I don't understand the complaint against Hillary that she doesn't have detailed plans. She did.

What she didn't do was voice them in simple slogans at every rally, event, and speech. While you and I will visit her website and look at her plans most people won't. She didn't lose because of policy, she lost because she was the establishment and this election was about tearing down the establishment.

She could have possibly nullified that effect a bit, but honestly it's silly to sit here an nitpick whether or not her speeches were crafted correctly or that if only she had reached out more to working class whites, etc. when she lost to a guy who advocating banning immigrants because of their religion, stopped in MN two days before the election to attack the Somali refugee community there for no reason at all, advocated giving nuclear weapons to Saudi Arabia, Japan, and S. Korea. A guy who said that targeting civilians and committing war crimes as part of his foreign policy is so huge that micro-disecting Hillary's moves doesn't make sense.

 

I don't like the result either, but that doesn't discount the fact that ~48% of the electorate voted for Trump. A substantial number where many had already felt disenfranchised.

We live in a bipolar (sic) country, and a Hillary win would not have changed it. There will be hell to pay among the people with a young Conservative supreme court and a majority itching to tear down any hint of Obama's influence, but this is democracy and apparently people think they're entitled to more by voting for less.

We'll see if Trump will make good on helping out his base or, like any other politician, enrich his own interests.

If not, who else do they have to blame? Themselves? Unlikely...

 

I understand you are upset, but try to think a bit.

First Hillary knows damn well or should know that virtually nobody is going to read detailed position papers on a website. She or her handlers wanted it that way. As usual with her pathological cautiousness and fear of taking any position that is clear, she wanted to keep the campaign as seen in the visual media as content free as possible. The poor women never looked like she uttered a word that was not precleared by her handlers ahead of time. They or she wanted to keep the campaign reduced to Trump so crazy and sexist and racist.

Deckard, you just don't get it. You seem like a nice enough smart guy who for whatever reason has not changed his political view point since roughly 1962. I wonder if you have any contact whatsover with poor people outside of an Austin suburb.

You have been so blinded by support for Hillary and the Dem old guard as well as her frankly Cold War foreign policy that you just have not been able to see what a bad candidate she was or how much damage they have done to the American working class or how ineffective they have been losing the old FDR coalition, both Houses of Congress and now 69 of the 99 legistatures in the 50 states.. You will blame anyone but Hillary and their old corporate political consultant crowd. All males including progressives were just "Bernie Bros". You want to blame Bernie, nearly 50% of the working class who probably like Hillary you see merely as "deplorables". You probably agree when Hillary called Bernie supporters a "basket full of losers, though exempt yourself, I guess. I suppose you agree with Rahm Emmanuel when he called early left/liberal critics of Obama "ffing r****ds"
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Now get hysterically angry and respond.

 

Hm.

Hello, Deckard.

You know, I think I might have mentioned here once that I had a particularly enlightening personal experience about the nature of voting (specifically, people voting against their own economic self-interest in our capitalist society)...

...and in true Negro-specific, race-baiting fashion...

I recently had a long discussion with a friend of mine in Maryland. Young guy...millennial...Asian-American...smart...passionate...good job, blue state, all that good stuff. He's also a social activist.

And he told me that he decided not to vote in this election, because if nothing that President-Elect Donald Trump could say or do publicly or privately would get any of his supporters to see him for the empty shell of a man that he is... (whether or not he actually believes any of the hateful and disgusting rhetoric he used, the fact that he used it at all is enough for me to know how much contempt he holds for people who he feels aren't worthy of respect)...

...or that Hillary Clinton was the smarmiest of politicians...skilled in diplomacy and clumsy on empathy (at least in public forums, for a lot of reasons that aren't all her fault, per se, but there all the same) and didn't deserve his vote...

...the point of voting was wasted.

In the past, I would have been quick to chastise him and condemn his inaction. But like I referenced before, I learned a lot about what makes people tick in these instances, particularly in our little democratic corner of the world.

I found myself lamenting the fact that a person with the ability to help shape the way his life is governed in this cacophony of ideas and perspectives that is America, felt that he had no option among any of the candidates to align himself with. His vote, however he would have chosen to cast it, was far too important to not use it at all.

To me, for all of the hand-wringing currently about third party votes and whatnot...none of those votes, in principle, were at all wasted or miscast. Some of the responses in the "Ernie Johnson" thread to EJ's voting dilemma and how he approached his particular trepidation were disheartening to me.

I understand the big picture. I understand the long game. There was more at stake in this election than just a personal bit of pique. The Supreme Court will perhaps be radically changed in the next four years, most importantly...and will remain so for decades after...and will challenge or unwind much of the social progress of the last 40 years...all of that is true and all of that is fact.

My point, Deckard my friend, is that none of those things are why President-Elect Trump won. He won because the people who voted for him felt that he heard them and listened to them and understood them. It remains to be seen, as yet, if all he's done is use them, but still...

Desperation and fear are real human emotions, and can be as galvanizing as soaring oratory or visionary purpose. The people that voted for Donald Trump are not all racists. They are not all homophobic. They are not all xenophobic. They are not all stupid.

But they are scared of a world that changed so much and forgot to tell them about it. And struggling financially so much that they've decided to take the magic beans for whatever their cow might fetch at market.

I know what it's like to be scared and to be poor. None of Donald Trump's supporters know what's it's like to be black, and frankly, I'm not surprised that's not a priority for them. It never has been and never has had to be...they're looking out across tables at families they can barely feed. They're looking at bills they can't pay. They're looking for jobs that aren't there and at a future that says it doesn't need them.

Black folk know exactly what that feels like. I know personally what desperation and fear can lead one into doing (another story for another time, maybe)...and I know that ultimately compromising your dignity and principle to quell that desperation and to assuage that fear is potentially catastrophic.

What I also know is that, as a certified Negro race-baiter (with a heart of pure gold, I assure you), is that if Donald Trump's electorate has become so economically desperate and so culturally fearful that a lot of essentially good people could be driven or forced or relegated to voting for a man who shares none of their loyalty, devotion or conviction...then perhaps it's time for my reverse-racist shtick to recede into the background.

Just for a little while.

We'll see if our constitutional republic can withstand President-Elect Trump going full Donald, if he decides to do so, soon enough, Deckard. Don’t worry. You know as well I do that we’ve faced down worse things.

I have said, and continue to believe, that Black people in America are the conscience of the country. Our history here is legendary, at least to me…because if we had given up or turned to other means, we would not have survived. Now, the challenge for us as black folk (number 469 on that list, if I got my figures right) is to move away from this particular point in time and allow those who have not been heard their moment to do what they think they need to do. None of them are interested in the “big” problems because there isn’t a problem bigger to them than their ability to provide for themselves and their families. I won’t judge or condemn that, because I’m not in a position to do so. Nevertheless, it is real and it must be addressed.

None of those people cared about any of the racism or xenophobia. And they won’t care now. They have their mandate and they have their opportunity.

Those people are there because they essentially had nowhere else to go. That is the fault of the Democratic Party. I’ll even take a heaping helping of blame, since that’s suddenly in vogue now. Why not?

The Democratic Party has imploded because of its intellectual disaffected hubris, and Trump has exposed that the veneer of statesmanship that the Grand Old Party may have once possessed was a lie. And arguments between rich white people and poor white people that have been around since the very beginning are going to have to be settled by them. They’ll have to see for themselves who is sincere in helping them and who is not. And they’ll have to decide if the old ways (whatever they were or are) are still the best ways.

People don’t care as much about the message, Deckard, as they care about the messenger. The best con men won’t tell you that, but that’s exactly how they operate.

There will be a time, very soon, I suspect, to heal those racial divides and social anxieties. But this time would be better spent preparing leaders who will make sure that they not only have a message to deliver, but an ear to listen with.

And a heart to grieve with, if need be...

I won’t ever acknowledge or side with anyone who condones or hides behind or masks or covers up racism. I can’t afford to. I learned not to compromise on that, because there are too many other things to agree on that are better all on their own.

But what I will do is prepare a place for them to stand beside me where they don’t have to make a compromise like that just to survive.

The facts will always be the facts, Deckard. And they’ll always be there.

What we’ve got to learn to do is guide people to those facts.

And listen to them when they speak to us about them.

The truth has never needed a carnival barker to drum up an audience…

 

This is pure gold, the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've read in some time.

 

BS Deckard

I told you she wasn't going to win unless she picked Sanders as her VP, and that you were overestimating the public. You were complacent just like a whole lot of other Dems. And that's why people didn't vote and the election was lost. I was telling everyone Hillary was in trouble and what I heard constantly was that I was crazy.

And she didn't win the debates - not with the voters that matter. She won the debate in California and NY, but she lost them in Michigan and PA.

 

62% of white non college educated white women voted for trump, but what was more surprising was 45% college educated white women voted for him.

In a race of margins, she lost "her base", if gender was the defining reason for her nomination.

 

That's interesting.

 

I do agree with your incremental steps with many of the issues facing the country, but I think democrats ended up trying to do too much. That is the steps were incremental, but the staircase was too wide if that makes sense. That's not to belittle your priorities, but as a straight male who believes in LGBT issues I think in hindsight the democrats tried to change too much during a time when there was already abrupt change from globalization and technology.

 

Not disagreeing with your argument. You are completely correct that people want charismatic passionate leaders. I was stating my own view that I'm less swayed by that and am even suspicious of campaigns that are primarily based on passion. It was one of the reasons why I didn't support Obama duringthe 2008 primaries.

As far as whether Sanders could've won I just addressed this in another thread but to sum up I don't think so . The election would've been different but I think Trump still would've won and probably by a larger margin. The attack line on Sanders Trump previewed it last spring when he started calling him "Crazy Bernie." Sanders might've countered Trump's protectionist message but he wouldn't have been able to address the cultural and social message that core Trump supporters had. Trump would've painted him as a kooky east coast elite far out of touch with the values of middle America. Further Sanders could not have addressed a core tenet of Trump support regarding fear of Islamic terrorism and Immigration.

Further this idea that Sanders would've gotten 65 million votes I think is highly questionable considering that he lost the primaries by almost 4 million. I don't see how that works out to him getting Obama type numbers in the general. It makes no sense. The idea that Sanders only lost because the DNC rigged the primaries would make sense if he Clinton won narrowly or only because of the super delegates. Neither was the case. Keep in mind that there were the same charges in 2008 that the DNC was rigging the election for Clinton but Obama still won. Sanders was inspiring to some but not anywhere close to Obama.

My own opinion though is that if the country is more interested in who is more entertaining and has better style over substance then we do deserve Trump. The guy's a great salesman and he sold the country a bill of goods.

 

Haven't read this thread. Posting for an update: Deckard are you still blaming traditional Democratic voters for Hillary Clinton's loss?

imso: She was always unelectable, both in 2008 and now. The only reason I thought she'd win is because an equally unelectable candidate was opposing her I think her ego got in the way: When many politicians would retire after Obama defeated them in 2008, she apparently felt it was her turn, like an entitled, self-absorbed insider. Democratic Party deserved a better candidate than her. She let us down simply by running, not the voters.

Absolving Clinton of blame and transferring it to fellow Democratic voters is very weak. Hopefully you were just mad, and won't actually look down on voters and blame them, and carry that resentment, as that's misdirected anger, imo.

Also, Fact Checking: What do you mean the Dem voting was down 3%. Is that a measurement versus Obama's two elections.

 

Am I supposed to believe that the people who went to Clinton's website to look at the "issues" also went to Trump's website to look at the "issues"?

I went to both. I didn't see illegal immigration on Clinton's site. I didn't see H1-B visas on Clinton's website.

Issues? The only issue on Clinton's site is the lack of response to how voters feel.

 

I will never accept Trump as President. I'm going to with a group to DC to protest him on Inauguration Day. I honestly believe this man could be danger to millions of ppl's life's. If you thought that too what would you do to stop him?

 

I disagree with this part of your statement. Campaigns are built around the rules as they stand. That means that the goal of a campaign is not to gather as many votes as possible, but to win the electoral college. 10,000 votes in Pennsylvania were much more valuable to Trump than a million votes in California or New York, and that affects how Trump campaigns in those states. Republicans have one safe large population state, Democrats have two, so as long as the electoral college exists in its current winner take all form (with current demographics), the popular vote will skew toward the Democrats as compared to the electoral college.

 

Sanders lost because he was unknown at the beginning. The fact that he made it as close as he did was remarkable. And he would have pulled more votes from Clinton.

Trump might call him crazy Bernie but Bernie was viewed like Trump as saying it like it is. Bernie would have energized Dems like Obama and pulled people to come out and vote. And his anti-Trade position would have prevented him from having the achille heel that Clinton had in the rust belt. I can't believe you think he would have lost by a larger margin to Clinton - who was utterly a damaged candidate with an uninspiring platform, a damaged Clinton brand, painted as corrupt as heck, and had an ongoing email scandal.

 

I don't venture into the D&D much, but just wanted to post that I have very much enjoyed reading the back and forth in this thread. Interesting discussions.

 

I guess I'll never understand the smug prigness of the illiberal elite. They placate to the rust belt about jobs and training with no real emotion or plan. God forbid we reduce tech visas and force Silicon Valley into the "white" hinterland, full of job-seeking Trainable Americans.

Absolutely pathetic.

 

Thanks for sharing Hillary's email with us OP!

Truth is, Hillary lost this election and f***ed progressives for at least 4 years, if not 12. This idiot was not willing to be more of a change candidate instead holding on for dear life to her life long values, which is to be a centrist in a system that has SAILED to the right in a country that annually needs more social support. She was not willing to fight fairly against a candidate who had a better chance of bringing millenials out, of meeting the needs of Americans for change, of flat out beating Donald Trump. She was not willing to rebuke a single donor. She welcomed the endorsements of war criminals and right wing neo cons, who came flocking to her. She was not willing to mention the pipeline. She was not willing to distance herself sufficiently from the TPP. She f'ing hired Debbie W Schultz after the leaks showed their total disregard for running the DNC in the interest of people whose vote they needed. A f'ing tape came out saying she wished she had intervened in the outcome of the democratic proceedings of a traumatized, nationless, desperate population. She deleted 30,000 emails after a subpoena. In a speech she REFUSED to publicize, she told donors that she has a private and public position, something she never would have told people, and then she told people there's nothing wrong with it.

She had the support of every celebrity you can dream of, the immoral hard handed support of the DNC, the endorsement of the president, Bernie campaigned for her, Stein and Johnson voters basically stayed home. Trump didn't release his taxes, it came out he is MORE misogynistic than we thought, a dozen people accused him of rape, he told her he would have her investigated, he knew **** all about the job he was applying for, his wife plagiarized a speech. OBAMA VOTERS didn't come out for her, many of them coming out for Trump. Do you know what an incredible feat that is? She was so bad that right wingers and many Obama voters agreed on something. Wow.

You are totally disconnected from the diversity and struggles of people in America if you think Hillary did what needed to be done to secure the vote of ALL struggling Americans. She ****ed up. She should have leaned MORE towards want people wanted in a couple of other issues like healthcare or student debt or TPP or anti-fracking. She dug her heels in, she had her surrogates yell at people for supporting anyone else, and now she is acting entitled to the presidency after losing to the worst, one trick pony candidate in the modern history of elections.

To **** with her. The progressives in the DNC are motivated to upgrage that corrupt and spineless organization and Trump is sticking to his plan to ditch the TPP. If you had guaranteed Americans that those two things would happen if Trump were elected, she would have lost by even more. Let her keep telling Americans that things just need a little improvement while they continue to suffer badly.