that a decision did not result in the intended and desired outcome does not suffice in deeming the decision demeritorious. whether you subscribe to either of the conflicting schools that tracy gave up or rather that he didn't have enough help, trading for a 25 year old All-NBA scoring champ was absolutely the right move to make at that time. despite rocket river's nostalgic reminiscence of some conjured glorious run prematurely euthanized by the trade, that team had maxed out its potential and was going nowhere and only appeared as competitive as it did in the playoffs due to a favorable matchup. it's unfortunate that things did not work out with mcgrady, but i can absolutely live with that decision. the arguments to the contrary are absolutely absurd and can only be described as rather creative exercises in revisionism.
Tailor Made Matchup???? Please Explain . . . my memory is foggy. Bad Trade? Well . . . Barkley for Horry and Cassell was a BAD TRADE SF3, Mobley and Cato for TMac and Howard was at best a Lateral Move . . . and IMO . . . . one of those . . Get the biggest name in the Deal trades You traded 2 and a half starters for 1 and a half Starts I have supreme confidence that the Rockets were on the upswing Improving and would have been better the next year with or without the trade So In closing. . . winning a few more games in the regular season and flaming out to Spazz and Allas .. . . doesn't make it a MAJOR UPGRADE and a Clear WIN in the Trade Column Rocket River
Rocket, I see where u say it was a lateral move for regular season victories, but I don't think they wouldve made the playoffs with that crew. So if u feel that way about the macgrady and the barkley trade, tell me how u feel about giving away a lotto pick for shane.
there was nothing short of jubilation on this board when it was determined that we would be facing the lakers. it is fact that they were the most favorable matchup for this team. yao and cato played shaq relatively well. they had no point guard to counter francis. (theoretically - steve was on the decline as well, but payton was awful. it was still an advantage for us in the relative sense compared to some of the other matchups out there.) mobley played kobe well. our biggest weakness was power forward, and they didn't have one. karl malone and gary payton were awful that year. in fact, mo taylor thoroughly outplayed karl malone. it was the absolute best case scenario matchup and thus the results of that series weren't accurately indicative of any future trajectory of the team. and even still, it was 3-1. i personally contest that the barkley trade was good but that one was much more debatable. i'll digress as i don't want to go off on a tangent.... not really. this has no argumentative utility beyond semantic posturing. you would be committed to the same logic if we traded brooks, scola, and hayes for kobe and luke walton. based on what? mobley was coming off easily the most efficient season of his career and it is hard to think he would make any significant improvement on that at his age, at least not enough to make a substantial improvement in the team (and in fact he never did later in his career). steve was already 27 and was on the steady decline. do you just refuse to acknowledge that steve francis and kelvin cato were never again relevant in the NBA after that trade? where was this improvement coming from? yao is a constant and one could even argue that mobley/francis were hampering his development, though i am not committed to that. that team had no upword trajectory whatsoever and was maxing out its capabilities on the strength of a tenacious whole is greater than the sum of its parts defensive scheme, yet you still somehow to this day make the claim that the team was on the rise on the basis of a 4 game series with the lakers. i really don't get it. like i said, the eventual outcome isn't probative of dismissal for the initial decision. there were certain factors that went into play after that trade, whichever narrative you prescribe to, that heavily influenced the path of this franchise from that point forward. you for some reason choose to ignore that.
Steve was in Decline . . .or he 'defered and changed his style of play FOR THE TEAM' ? mmmmmkay Hayes nor Walton are starters. . . While Cato and Howard were starters. . . i didn't see either of them as a full start . . . the reality It would be like trading Brooks, Battier and Scola for Kobe and Fisher [a trade I probably would not do . . . .i prefer to go with my homegrown with upside than folx 'in decline' hired guns] Yea Mobley Francis hampered his developement but the Volume shooter didn't The following year . . francis was still good . . .the knick years . .well it was the knicks [IMO the trade damaged SF mentally . . . i can admit that . . a fragility that bothered me about him . . . but can't hate a guy for loving your town ] It is just bad luck, huh? So In your opinion . . the Team made a supremely upgraded but had years of bad luck . . . . . rrrriiiiiggghhhhtttt Rocket River
I remember when Lebron first came to Houston and he was trying to go for a left hand layup and Francis blocked him on the backboard. Unfortunately, they called a foul but to me it looked like a clean block. Francis gave Lebron this look of don't bring that weak stuff in here.
LOL. you fail to grasp basic logic. the two aren't mutually exclusive - the fact that he changed his style of play for the team is still consistent with severely reduced production. are you somehow arguing this wouldn't have been constant the next year? regardless of the cause, his overall effectiveness was the lowest of his career up to that point. are you expecting an improvement on the basis that you expected him to revert to his old style of play (since you attribute the decrease in production to a deference for the benefit of the team)? lol...i don't think you even know what you are arguing at this point. you said "You traded 2 and a half starters for 1 and a half Starts". if cato wasn't the 'half starter' in this brilliant argument, who was exactly, lol....not that any of this absurdity is argumentatively relevant. LOL. /thread. sorry, i can't even debate this anymore with a straight face. i'm not even trying to be rude, i can't do this. you apparently missed the part where i said i wasn't committed to that argument. and if you didn't recognize that yao was the first option on offense in the mcgrady years, then i really don't know exactly what you were watching. it's pretty common knowledge that mcgrady always did a much better job of getting yao the ball then did francis. uh huh, so francis' decline is attributed to having been on the knicks whereas the failures during the mcgrady era are solely reflective of his inabilities and serve as a ultimate indictment of the deal itself. right, lol. it's fairly clear this whole episode just boils down to an emotional concern for you as i have yet to witness any rational arguments on your behalf.. i really can't help you if you can't make the distinction between an initial action and the effects of subsequent actions and their impact on the overall outcome. if a patient dies on the operating table, does that mean the decision to have surgery was the wrong one? if i fail to get hired at a particular position, does that mean the decision to interview was the wrong one? because we didn't win the world series, was trading for randy johnson the wrong move despite having the best record in baseball at the time of the deal? you're clearly incapable of making the distinction between the value of an action and the determinants impacting its outcome.
sorry bigz, when some starts a thread called "KOBE" and then posts nothing about the Rockets in it, just videos of the Orlando Magic, then I find it that I would do my duty to respond. I went on a tirade cause the poster made a stupid point and I don't want him to dumb the newer fans to thinking that somehow Kobe couldn't guard Tmac, but NEWS ARTICLES proved that his point was wrong. when someone is driving on the wrong side of the street, you honk your horn. Because Steve wanted to celebrate the city enjoying a rare superbowl, I forgive him. It's not like he was slacking on the court, letting Jamario Moon go dunk contest cause he was lazy. These guys were ORIGINAL ROCKETS and this is the year Cuttino/Steve ended their careers. It's just coincidence it happened to be Tracy McGrady's worse year as a Rocket and that he revealed his character issues to the public. Didn't you know that Cuttino had to retire this year because of that heart condition?
It's OK that you're making the case that a team starting 4 future hall of famers was a "good matchup" for the Rockets. I don't buy it, but I understand your point. Malone and Payton were on the downside of their careers, but they weren't "awful". Malone averaged 13 and 9 boards, Payton 15 and 6 assists. They both shot 47 - 48% from the field. That was an extrordinarily talented team. They had vets like Malone and Payton and Ho Grant and Bryon Russell and Rick Fox. Shaq and Kobe in their primes. And that formula took them all the way to the NBA Finals. The Rockets lost in that series because nobody stepped up in the playoffs consistantly except for Francis. They didn't lose because of Steve, they lost in spite of his 19, 8, 8 average in the series. Yao was good in games 2 and 3, fouled out in 4, and looked lost in games 1 and 5. Cuttino took the first 2 games off, and Mo Taylor hardly thoroughly outplayed Malone, averaging 10 and 3 to Malone's 18 and 10. In fact, your statement that is so thoroughly false that it taints the rest of your entire argument and makes you look like you never saw the series. Malone was the Lakers' saving grace in game 4, when it looked like the Rockets might even up the series, going for 30 and 13. The Rockets' trade for McGrady made sense at the time, getting the younger superstar and scoring champ. But to base it somehow on Francis' failures is ridiculous. He was awesome that series, just electrifying, and looked more promising and mature then than he ever had before.
in retrospect, the trade worked out well for the Rockets. Francis and Mobley were going to take us no where. As they showed what happened when they left. Neither are even in the league. We still have t-mac, who very well could be a contributor next season. I think T-mac has brought us closer than Steve or Cuttino ever could or would.
Cuttino made to the 2nd round with the worst franchise in the league. Plus he was still playing fantastic this year until he had to retire for that heart condition. Well the fans still love Steve cause he was an original Rocket, they wanted to see him play this year even though we know he's washed up. That shows you that Rocket fans appreciate heart.
it's seemingly paradoxical to assert that the consensus #1 team in the league was also the consensus favored matchup, but i remember it distinctly. we were all scoreboard watching the final day of the season as kobe hit two impossible 3 pointers to beat portland and secure the division title. the board rejoiced as this was our preferred opponent. they were the best team, but we just matched up better with them than the alternatives. first of all, i never said they lost because of steve - he was incredible for us in that series, particularly in game 3 with one of the most memorable sequence of plays in rockets history late in the game. secondly, i stand corrected on malone and payton. however, i vividly recall that gary payton was a complete defensive liability so much to the point that in game 3, we would simply attack him with whoever of mobley/francis that he was guarding, even after he switched. similarly with taylor, he was able to get his shot at will against malone. my point was that this was a favorable matchup for our team's offensive strengths and this success we had wasn't indicative of the team's overall trajectory. it was well known that the lakers had trouble defending point guards with shaq's pick and roll inabilities, and payton's age. mobley also always played well against kobe. again, it sounds paradoxical, but this was the best matchup for our strengths. it's just how the fact that aaron brooks torched portland and LA, the two teams perhaps in the entire playoffs with the weakest pg's, isn't necessarily reflective of the elite status that his numbers might lead one to surmise. again, i'm not blaming francis for anything. he played his ass off and did everything asked of him. i'm merely saying that his performance wasn't reflective of the upward trajectory that belies the assumption in rocket river's premise.
I don't know about favorite memories, coz there are so many of them. But the saddest moment happened in the first game Rockets facing Steve in Magic uniform. After Yao made a free throw, Steve stepped up and was so ready to high five Yao, stopped abruptly after he realized that he's not supposed to. That was a sad moment to me, and it shows how much Steve is attached to the Rockets team. I love TMac but sometimes I kept wondering, what if we just tweaked the team after they first came together as a team but failed short in first round against LA with 4 future HOFs, instead of blowing the whole team up? Just another whatifs, we will never know the answer to. They may both have big shortcomings, but their passion for the game and for the team are always memorable to all Rockets fans.
I'm sorry. I know RR is a well respected and reputable poster, but I can't take him seriously in THIS debate. RR wouldn't trade Brooks, Scola + Hayes for Kobe + Fish? Better brace yourself when Brooks gets traded for a rookie RR. It's coming.
Francis had so much potential, if he had any type of bbIQ he could have been a HOF'er. He had a lot of heart and toughness but that can only get you so far.
All of these Steve arguments are extremely depressing. Can't we just appreciate what he and Cat gave to the organization. He played amazing during the playoffs, and he built Toyota Center Here's another great Steve moment <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VJtVEStfxSg&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VJtVEStfxSg&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> And for Nostalgia's sake. WE WANT STEVE!!!
honestly I don't think replacing those players with Kobe and Fish would take us any further in the playoffs. Fisher has been getting schooled most of the playoffs the Team Defense would nose dive. No Hayes to take up when Yao went down No Scola with his clutch plays? Grittiness Nope. .. remove Scola, Hayes and AB replace them with Kobe and Fisher. . . I don't think that would make us automatic champions this year and with another year of tread off the tires. . i don't think it would bode well for next year either . . . Rocket River
I did not expect him to revert back to his 'old style' of play I expected him to be a year more familiar with the system he was in working with a year more Mature Yao. TEAMWORK . . Remember that is why THIS TEAM THIS YEAR DID BETTER WITHOUT . . . That with . .. That Rocket team was coming together. . . .growing Cohesive Does Hayes Start? Did Cato Start? Cato was our starting power forward So in the trade we lost Starting PG . . starting SG and a credible Power Foward [Cato was good playing alongside YAO IMO . . .he was like Chuck Hayes in a sense that he was not expected to score and was expected to play good D] .. then again . . maybe u right . . . Cato may not have started. So I will stand corrected [We might have started the *ss Horrible Mo Taylor] LOL. Yao was the 1st option in the McGrady Era?
