The lack of humanization of trans people is so scary from you and us why I call you a fascist. Look at this post. In your entire post here of trying to be seen as some reasonable person did you even have the basic empathy skills to ask "so what about trans people who fully transitioned where their appearance is close enough of that of the opposite sex where going to their birth sex changing room or bathroom would cause even more of a scene?". Your basic lack of empathy here doesn't ask "is there a way for a trans person to not have an existential crisis of which bathroom to chose without being harassed and being made into a scene every time they need to tinkle while traveling?" And this concern of yourself of trans people in the wrong bathroom that eliminates empathy entirely is based on the data of how many women being sexually harassed or assaulted by trans people in locker rooms and bathrooms?
There is no "bathroom police". This whole "I have a right to use the bathroom of the gender I identify as" thing is activist BS. If some biological male has fully transitioned and looks like a chick, then it's not like someone is going to stand at the entrance or go into the bathroom stall and check their genitals. That's not a real issue.
You literally said it's a problem in your post I replied to. Your rhetoric definitely sounds like you want a bathroom police. You literally said trans women people shouldn't have the right to go to female changing rooms and bathrooms
We disagree. I have been critical of the majority of positions held by conservatives on the issue of transgender rights. Having said that, I am going to have dialogue with people that disagree with me and if they choose to twist what I say to believe that I agree with them, then that is their mistake and problem. Further, your position that trans activism ignores the opinion of biological women isn't "stupid nonsense". You are no better than ATW or others on the board if you are going to be so dismissive. I never said that trans activism is a "blight against women's rights". Those are YOUR words. What trans activism is, is just like most of society, it diminishes the concerns and rights of women........ and it certainly isn't unique in that way. The issue is in social discourse for a number of reasons. Politics certainly plays a point. However, the general understanding of what is and isn't a man or woman being called into question IS a big deal, even if it is for the purposes of discussion. Again...... I never dismissed trans-activism. Yes, the oppression of 50% of the population is more of a concern that the oppression of 2-3% of the population. However, that doesn't mean I don't support trans-activism. You really don't get it. Did I EVER say that one was more important than the other? No, in fact I have pointed out the high levels of suicide and depression with transgendered people. Further, I never even said trans-athletes shouldn't compete against biological women. What I said is that society needs to be honest.
HBO has a really cool series on HBO Max now called the Climb which basically just a sport climbing competition, but in some amazing locations. Really good if you are between shows. Anyways... In the competition there is a trans man (now) who without spoiling the whole show.... does pretty well against even some of the best male climbers in the world. It just got me thinking a bit about this silly debate, and how I think people who are having this debate as just so far removed from actually being an athlete themselves. The fact is skill, your mentality, your competiveness, etc. is still really really freaking important. There's also this element of pride nobody thinks about with sports. Right now, even being freaking 40 (fck...) I could go play basketball against my daughters 8 year old basketball team, and dominate.... but would I be fulfilled as an athlete???... of course not. So I think people just need to give it a rest. Go watch the Climb and see it firsthand. The door swings both ways, and the door is made up of more than wood. You still have hinges, nails, and the contractor or homeowner who put the door on correctly. If someone watches The Climb, and thinks the trans athlete on that show is cheating I'd love to get your thoughts on why that is.
We disagree. There are posters who I disagree with on some aspects on this particular issue. But there is a difference between disagreeing and accepting the grounds of debate with a person like ATW who spams anti-trans content daily. It's like a individual being frustrated by a single banker who happens to be Jewish in 1920s Germany and then engaging in conversation with the evils of Jews with a Nazi while some leftist is like "why are you even engaging with this person in the first plsce?" If you started this thread about a sincere concern, the it would be grounds for a genuine debate amongst people who don't have some agenda to hate trans people. But that isn't the case. We are debating on the grounds of right wing extremists who want us to make this a top discussion of priority. You dismissing the disproportionate nature of this issue being limelighted as "just politics" is.... Unsettling.
How would that person be cheating if it's a biological woman competing with men? If anything, the person is at a disadvantage, no?
You absolutely have bought into the wedge between trans people and women as a zero-sum game with your rhetoric. You've said many times on this message board that women's rights are suffering because of trans people.
Maybe? The public view on the issue will likely change over time. 75 years ago the majority of people were against integrated changing rooms and sports. 30 years ago a majority of people were against gay marriages or openly gay men using male locker rooms. I don't know what the long term fall out will be, but I do know that I have personally lived through some debates that were remarkable similar. Respectfully, identifying as an animal is brought up by many to dehumanize transgender people and it is a tactic that has been used on other social issues as well. It is also a very flawed argument and doesn't help those that support that side of the debate. The issue of how far we go on transgender rights is a fair discussion, but it isn't one that is articulated well by those on the right. I didn't say you are against multi-racial marriages. I don't think you are against them at all. However, the arguments being used were used against it and gay marriages. As for gay people, I know gay people that push back on how far some that support transgender rights want to go as well. The issue is where do we meet in the middle and instead both sides have made the argument an either/or scenario.
Womens rights are suffering period, because of the influence of the patriarchy.... be that trans-rights or a number of other causes. That doesn't mean that I am against transgender rights though... it means that in society as a whole, women need greater influence and say, especially on issues that impact them.
i haven't been able to follow all of the posts since I last posted this morning so apologies if this was addressed. Based on the above then would you find it acceptable for a post op trans person who to use women's facilities and to compete in the sports of their choice as a women?
The patriarchy... Trans rights. What? Aren't those mutually exclusive? So I'm right in saying you believe trans people are harming women's rights? I never said they were the only group you claimed.
I'm not clear with what you mean but considering that trans people suffer a disproportionate amount of discrimiination I don't see how they are part of the patriarchy. Also so much of the focus is on male to female trans put there are also female to male trans. Yes they should but I will note again that the vast vast majority of comments in this thread are being made by males many who seem certain they know what women want and what is best for women.
I dunno you tell me. One could probably argue both ways. Maybe one could say because he was born with smaller features as a female but then transitioned it helped him in this particular sport. My point is that skill actually still matters a ton. Yeah there are some sports like basketball where height obviously is a dominant trait at the professional level, but that doesn't mean that skill doesn't matter. Pride also matters. Can you imagine if Joel Embiid transitioned this Summer, and signed on to play in the WNBA... would he actually compete with pride that he's one the best in the world beating the best?? Probably not. He'd probably look like a jackass. That's why I don't think it's going to be an issue moving forward. Embiid isn't going to the WNBA. Dwight Howard.... maybe at this point but that's another thing entirely.
I get your point that societal acceptance is a moving target and that from today's perspective, things that are considered normal in free societies were not considered normal and were pushed back against not long ago. But that doesn't necessarily mean that everything that gets advocated by activists now has merit. Do you object when I say "everyone should have the right to identify as whatever they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others"? I think most people could agree with that, and then of course there are the real life examples of whose interest should trump the other group's interests. When it comes to gay people, I don't think them getting married interferes with anyone else's rights. Love is love. (I'll actually be attending my wife's cousin's wedding with his fiancé in Lisbon in September.) If someone questions inter-racial marriages, they are a racist to me. Again, love is love. And if someone identifies as a different gender, that's fine. I was unaware that this is as common a phenomenon as it appears to be, and I have learned more about this subject in recent times (actually, also through this board - the statistics posted here surprised me). At the same time, I think it is necessary to also take the interests of other people into account, and women who do not want to have to compete with biological males and who do not want biological males in their changing rooms should get their voices heard. Also, I think that transgender people should understand that people just live their life using subconscious pattern recognition, and if someone still looks like their biological sex and they therefore get addressed as such, that is not "violence" or discrimination. If it's done intentionally to mock them and denigrate them, then that's a different story.
Also there is the notion that this entire concept of people transitioning for ulterior motives that people like ATW claim also shows a basic lack of empathy skills. To think that people will change their entire sex and whom they can have sex with just to win a women's division? Ya that never will happen. The only instance where I can think of a bad faith transition if you are about to get a life sentence for something like murder and now magically identify as the opposite sex right before being sent off with never once expressing those desires before.
The amount of times a trans person lashed out at someone sincerely misgendering because of a lack of knowledge pales in comparison to the amount of people purposely misgendering someone because they want to make a point like for example using sentences that incorporate more pronouns than usual and emphasizing on them when they come up.
Right... I had to think of the most odd person ever to think of a scenario where it's plausible because that person with such low self respect. But honestly at this point.... I think even Dwight Howard wouldn't be that dominate in the WNBA even while being a laughing stock. I think he would fair worse than people might think.
