Popeye We all know the axiom...what wasn't clear to me was what the "wrong way" was and what your "simple plan" is. As for the simple plans i offered...the dream one seems to be taking care of itself (see Blinebury's Sunday article)...the leaders on this team are Rudy and Dream...that's it. Thanks for the strong argument for winning attitudes Popeye. tell me what you think of cato's commitment.
Popeye: You said management needs to show some balls. I mentioned Drexler, Barkley, Francis, etc. Management has balls. Do they have to make a trade every three months to satisfy you? The trading season just began a few days ago. I would not put it past them to make a few trades if the right ones arise. It has been their nature to do so (the various deals I mentioned). I agree that a major shake-up is not in order. As far as my considering most of the trade talk on the BBS as speculation, was that really an absurd assumption? By speculation, I didn’t mean zero chance of happening, I just meant the trades discussed were not confirmed to be on the table or even in talks between the teams – speculation. I enjoy trade talk regardless. It’s fun, but you were right about my limited resources on the subject (simply what I read in the media, no access to insiders in the Rockets organization). I may be wrong in assuming the same about most of the other BBS-ers, but I’m naturally skeptical. To answer your questions, I’m not a politician, a Spurs fan, a LaLander, or a little kid to be talked down to. It’s funny how people write on the Internet. Would you talk that way to my face? You made some good points on you post as you usually do, but I could do without the condescending remarks (“read my damn post”, etc.)
Oaktree I apologize for some( but not all) my remarks directed at you. It did start out as friendly banter on my part and I digressed into condescending crud as you pointed out. But I did feel you ... forget it ... let's go on ... "You said management needs to show some balls. I mentioned Drexler, Barkley, Francis, etc. Management has balls. Do they have to make a trade every three months ..." 1.That was one of my points. We all expect the players to come to play every game. Put their damn paycheck on the line and play their hearts out. I contend that, by a vast majority, this young team does do that. I further contend, that I do not feel that management has done their heartfelt best to put the optimal best-possible team together. 2.As your above quoted argument states, and as I previously took great issue (with), if the Barkley trade and the Drexler move are two thirds of this management's efforts (Francis being the third,which I concede)towards making this present team better ... then you are saying a trade 4-5 years ago which you have used as an example of them showing their aforementioned "balls", is enough of an effort by management to show they have faith in this new, young team. To extrapolate this ... the measure of this team's individual players' efforts therefore, should be based on what they did several seasons ago. Dang with logic like that we should be starting Maloney, Horry and a couple others over our present roster. This management team headed mainly by CD and RT has had several opportunities to move this team closer to a more effective, competitive team without harming the starting six or seven rotation. They balked at that. And that is what I mean by not having the "balls" to effectively manage and make a decision. If an individual player was as obviously ineffective as this, time after opportunitous time ( opportunitous, may not even be a word, but I'm on a roll here, LOL ), then he would be let go a long time ago. Time for them to stand by their team and help them. grumett "I think you overstate your point when you talk about irreparable damage to a young team. " I disagree obviously and strenously. This same young team that is supposed to learn through experience, learn through veteran show & tell, learn through respect for the organization has the following history. (1) They have experienced some (not all,but some)losses due to a poor rotation sequence and play calling by the coaching staff. (2) Their veterans have been injured and they have lost the opportunity to "lean and learn" on thier vets. (3) They have had mixed signals from the organization. "We want to win." "We will not tolerate a non competitive attitude." This will not be a "wash" or a "tanked" season. Yet, management have been presented with opportunities to do something. To sign Mack. To trade two or three non-starters for an effective starter or role player. To use their exemptions. I contend that this lack of effort will allow this young team to feel either (1) comfortable with losing or (2) focusing on next year's draft, next year's roster, next year's opportunities. That to me would destroy this young nucleus of a team and in fact irreparably damage any chance of salvaging this season. To Everyone Else!!! I get frustrated with the two mutally exclusive camps of thought on this BBS lately. Camp One: The players aren't playing well enough. It says we should be blaming the players because they aren't winning games. Dammit,they are playing way above themselves. They are in almost every game. for example: They took the NBA World Champions to the mat. They just were not effective at the end. Do you think the Spurs were not scared at some point there? Anyone see the look on Tim Duncan's frustrated mug all night? Most of what I read here, was how poor the Spurs played not how well we played. Did you read what the Spurs coaching staff said? I get fed up listening to post after post telling everyone how the players aren't trying hard enough but the management, they are doing everything possible. They are not. Read my above posts. They should be supporting this team. They have exemptions, Mack, offers, different rotations, etc ... they should stop looking at the lottery and next year. Start managing their hearts out ... right along with their players. Camp Two: This is a Tanked Year. Yeah, these "fans" post that this is a lost season anyway, just let it go. The Spurs Approach. We will get great lottery picks and we can play competitively next year. Screw this year. I call this the current populuist bandwagon camp. They will be the first to say: I told you so as we make our first pick at the summer draft.See what a great pick we got. But the nucleus of this present team will be a pile of ashes by then. The Rockets would have lost the respect that took decades to gain. Yeah, then these same posters will be wondering why premier players that previously would bypass teams like the Spurs World Champions, or take less money just to play in Rocketland ... now would cringe when Rockets are mentioned in a possible trade for them. Respect starts at the top. Time for this Rockets Organization to show some respect for their players and the fans. Time to start earning their salaries. Time to start listening to Indiana, Bucks, Sixers, Miami, Warriors, Clips, etc... answer the damn phone. Let the players know the management is putting some effort into this season. that for them, this season is not just a waiting period for the next draft.
Popeye: You can't forget the people who blame the coach. That's another group. So in other words you are saying there's one optimistic group thinking we can still make playoffs and compete for the title, while another group thinks we are rebuilding? Is that right?
RF34 Hell ... I think I was trying to say there is two groups now doing most of the posting on clutchcity: 1. Those that think we can win it all if the players stopped pretending they are a young, talented but naive bunch of guys and really "just try a little harder". Because afterall, the management have done everything for this undeserving bunch of whiners, right. 2. Those that really hope we don't get another win this year as long as we get the first pick in the lottery. Then the Rockets can be a "real team" and win a couple of rings the old fashioned way. We can lose perrenially and save our draft picks for a big push every five or six years. Actually I know someone will take me to great task for saying the above. But then again who cares. I'm usually the only guy yellin' my head of at the Compaq anyway. Surrounded by the bandwagon empty seats and the booing complainers who forget that the guys on the court are usually playing their hearts out, while Les, CD and RT plan next year's draft. Hey, it's just like being here!!! ..... I can always get kicked out of the game again, when I tell some punk twenty-five year-old in a $600 suit sitting in the company seats to ... "piss off,jerk" ... when he starts showing-off for his similiarly dressed friends by booing Francis's rare miss at a lay-up at the end of a real tight, hard fought third quarter.
I've read, and re-read this post, wanting to reply but not sure how to put my thoughts on the screen. But I'll give it a try. I may not have cojones to match the know-it-all, second coming of Red Auerbach, "let's do something for the kids before they are filled with insecurity" hyperbole that fills this post, but I thik a little common sense might be in order. Does anyone, anyone, think the Rockets would "do the Spurs thing"? Rudy and Rockets management are far more ethical than that. Are any of you so close to the team that you actually know the situations that they face every day? Rudy and his staff are doing everything they can to win. They know a hell of a lot more about the game and individual situations than any of us. If Rudy pulls a Francis or Anderson out of a game, it's because he knows more abut situational basketball than we'll ever dream of. I'm convince that there is a reason for everything the coaching staff does, and it ain't got anything to do with tanking. Do y'all think that Rudy and CD haven't considered change, haven't talked with other teams and determined that the price of change is too high or too risky or both? Rudy's got too much competitive fire him not to win. As for the players - well, guys, as the saying goes, you're all big boys now. Time to accept responsibility and accountability. There isn't room in the real world for a fragile ego. Mobley and Francis are the only players I've seen emotionally reacting to a loss. I'd like to see more of that - it shows you really care. If you're getting used to losing, then AMF, we don't need you. Yes, the young guys are trying (although I'm never quite sure which players will show up night after night - the hustling, shot making, playmaking, hard chargers or the "what the hell, it's just another game" bunch). If you can't make an in-bounds pass, or can't make at least 80% of your free throws, if you keep making the same dumb errors and turnovers night after night, then maybe you ought to feel insecure. CB (and the Dream for now) aren't here to make sure you don't lose your jock on a head fake, so suck it up! This BBS is a great forum for honorable discussions, not for sanctimonious put downs, and certainly is not a GM training ground (maybe for fantasy b-ball) because Les ain't going to listen to us anyway. Some of us have played the game and know the basics, but none of us have the knowledge and experience that the pros do; otherwise, they'd hire us.
nice spirit bobby... popeye given the options that the team has, why would they choose to pull the spurs of 96-97? i know you're not suggesting that they should, but could you play devil's advocate, and give your best argument possible for tanking the season? i can't figure out why they ever would... is les tired of spending money this season? do you think that the 1 in a crappy chance that they would have for next year (getting a top pick that is) is worth not picking up a veteran? if cb's exemption does come up, it would seem asinine to not use it... thanks in advance.
Bobby I said earlier, Popeye is showing a lot of passion, but I must agree with Bobby. Popeye is going from passion to attack mode. Popeye, opportunitious, may not even be a word, but I'm on a roll here Yes you are. But you seem to be alluding to management opportunity while not saying anything. You say we aren't answering the phones. well....I'm listening. tell me. what is it that you know. I don't believe Rockets management would leak anything about a trade...so what is it you know. Don't bash people and make comments about some batphone inner knowledge. We don't have links to batphones here, nor if I did would I be brandishing them here. All I know is math-wise and cap-wise there are mannnny opportunities out there, if we have some guts and make some gut instinct moves. I agree. But if you are alluding to rumor spread by NY Post writers who propogate their no-risk rumor mills, there's a lot more opportunity out there than what the NY writers are telling us, which we so obligingly reprint. You must know something else. What exactly are you telling us popeye, or is this a passion-driven tangent. (which I do agree with by the way, as I've said earlier.) The two camps you mention are indeed getting stale and annoying, but I'm finding, quite frankly, in my enjoyment of my upper deck seats this season and the diverse speculation I enjoy on this bbs, that comments like yours about stale arguments while yourself offering only axioms and allusions (i'm not sure that's a word, but I'm on a roll here), is any better. And any future (trade or otherwise) portraying Sam Mack as Mr. Deliverance or our "ace-in-the-hole" is flat-out overstated. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited December 21, 1999).]
Not sure if it would be smart of us to do the same thing that the Spurs did. That was just luck. I don't think they planned it. Besides how, at this point, would we know if there was somebody good enough to can the rest of the season for?
exactly daneb, which makes me think that all of the accusations of the same on this bbs are 'fanciful' at best. while i'm sure the team is aware of the seriousness of their situation (no cb, no dream for a while) i would think that they would do things in the best interests of the team. ex: 1) we get an injury exemption b/c of cb. for what reason would the team not take advantage of this slot? again, is les tired of wasting money this season? i would think that his advisors would remind him that this option to go above the cap will not exist w/o painful decisions elsewhere. 2) a trade exists that would get rid of fluffernutter and shore up holes i.e. gill for walt and tmass... losing tmass would hurt, but this is a no brainer for the guys in ties... 20+ games alleviates the rockets responsibilities to a shooter in slump. 3) are all 14 picks for next year team building material? or is it more likely that we'd be more competitive w/ an acquisition this year. i think the latter. there's no way in hell you'll convince me that a team that's spent 25~ games is tanking for next year's opportunities. i'd be more readily convinced that development time is priority, but give it a shot. again, why in hell would anyone tank this season? there are too many damn variables to calculate cost/benefit... it's much more reasonable for the rockets to judge every scenario/offer they hear on a case by case basis, than to risk something as serious as their future on not giving it their all for another 2/3 of the season.
Popeye: Do you mind telling us some of the trades that Rudy is ignoring? What offers are they standing still on?
popeye We are all fine with you. You can't offend me and I don't think I can offend you. We do believe you have more inner knowledge than we do. I don't think there's any question. But, you know...don't parade out your knowledge of phone calls and deals on the table then not mention anything, cause that's what people do to affect their words...hell you are not even telling me what players on the team aren't living up to your Talent, Desire Opportunity criteria and who isn't. what a tease....I guess I'm left reading rumors from New York sportwriters. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited December 21, 1999).]
I have been reading this thread with great interest, and have been wondering how I should voice my opinion. Here goes. I have said repeatedly that the Rockets do not have too many players with COURT savvy, and understanding of how to win at this level. I also tempered my remarks by saying that this will only come with experience. I want to get over the experience hump too, but it will be a long and painful climb, I think. Popeye is right in that Rudy has been talking a good game, but we all know that actions speak louder then words, and IMHO Rudy is coaching as hard as he can, but he has one eye on the future. Now for the bomb, this franchise...Including CD and Rudy have done this before. They have repeatedly slid down in playoff ranking to get a more favorable 1st round match up. IE.. Hakeem and Mad Max getting Anemia at the same time...PUHHHHLEEEAAAASSSEEE !! They were with the franchise when they TANKED..ON PURPOSE !!! To get Hakeem back in 84. I honestly think they have given up on this season, or more poinently have decided to let the young guys learn for better or worse, and we can see that it is leaning towards the worst side of things. Yes we could trade and get a veteran and be better this year, and there is creedance to Popeye's argument that it would help their pyschy to do this. I offer another thought. Rudy is just letting the young guys learn while he waits for Dream to get back and stabalize the ship. I think he realizes it will be a tough row, and they are NOT tanking it on purpose, but rather are letting the young team develop. My 2 cents DaDakota PS. Yes we could be better RIGHT NOW, but I think the Rockets Brass is willing to wait for bigger and better things. I do see one problem with this strategy, it is harder to get an arena referendum passed with a losing team. [This message has been edited by DaDakota (edited December 21, 1999).]
I will chime in on the contradictory actions by management this year in making the deals/trades/subtractions. I still can't get an answer on why we let go decent players who had guaranteed contracts, and we still had roster spots to fill (IR). They haven't even filled the spots after we had injuries! (Where is Devon?) Then they drop several million, get nothing, and won't sign a 3-pt threat for a couple of mil extra when they DESPERATELY need one?????? Or, make a trade to get one! This has been the wildest year as far as transition/injuries and distractions go. I can see why popeye is spitting spinach everywhere and looking to bust Bluto (RT/CD/LES) for messing with his Olive Oil. I don't think they would tank a season, but I have jested about the subject. Hak wouldn't go for a tank season. I think they know that it takes a couple of stars on the team to win it all, so I would believe that there could be some "positioning" taking place to get that second star. Otherwise, all the transitioning since the start of the season makes no sense to me at all. Anyone, feel free to enlighten me on these moves (Maloney, MacLean, Augmon, et al) when there is still room on the roster.
Rudyball, not room on the roster for Maloney, MacLean and Augmon. There were only 2 IR positions left at cut date (bullard started as one). Although you can put 2 of those three on the IR, it is not common to completely fill IR with players. It takes 3 games to get someone off IR, through bringing them up or cutting them. If Dream and Barkley go down, it takes 3 games to get someone off IR, to move both active players there (barkley must be on IR while we attempt to get his medical exemption), so you can get a Devin Gray a PF on the team. Plus, you can't make any 1 for 2 player trades with no IR spots avaible, w/o cutting someone. OK, so what good is Devin Gray. If nothing else, you need him for practice to keep starters sharp...Larry Smith is getting too old. Although, IR spots are available for "back spasms", you somewhat limit your options when all 15 spots are full. And if you want a second opinion, look at the team rosters throughout the league and you'll see that less than 40% of the teams are at a full 15. all-in-all, malony and maclean weren't backkups for front court injuries...so, they would have been cut off IR eventually. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited December 21, 1999).]
heypartner, Something must have changed in the CBA then, because the IR used to always be full, even for the Rox. If they are getting hinged for money that they normally would not have to give up, then I can see not filling the IR out. BUT STILL, guaranteed money is just that, so why not fill it up in case you hv those season ending injuries.
man, popeye, i have never seen you anywhere near this emotional. I am good with it. . . But in reponse to a couple of points. . I think there is a distinction between tanking a season and setting realistic goals for a team that lost both its veteran Hall Of Famers. I've got no problem with us declining trade calls right now, if - for no other reason - we need a couple of weeks/maybe months to assess our needs and strategies for this year and years to come. Is Cato the bomb or a bomb? Is Shandon's game indespensable or indefensible? What is the story with walt? These are questions which i would have answered very differently on different mornings since the Barkley injury, and I can not expect Rudy to have a firm grasp on it either. the jury is out on alot of these guys. and by the way, i may be the only guy holding out for walt. i am not convinced his slump is permanent at all. Just because we are not trying to wring as many wins as possible out of this season does not mean that we are pulling a Spurs, it just means we're being cautious. In my estimation, in context, this is not bad - we were too impulsive in trying to "improve-our-chances-this-year" by acquiring Pip, and even Barkley in 96 (eeek - dont hit me folks, i am sorry, i know, he is hurt, i like and miss him too, but i just think. . .(sigh). . .forget it, just please let this statement slide, Oslama Bin Barkleys out there, its the holidays, you know). What the hell was I talking about? Oh, right. The whole notion of taking a breather and assessing our needs, etc. rather than trying to crank a title/playoff run out of our creaky window of opportunity. We got a franchise player to replace Hakeem, which is a hell of alot more than other teams have done in the past decade. I do not think standing pat and getting a better feel for the squad is tanking, i think it is using a caution that would have served us well the past years. And I do not know if I agree with your assessment that being on a losing team r****ds the development of young players. Being in a dispirited, demoralized organization does, but I see more energy and promise out there than I have since 1996. If our coaches want to see what Cuttino does for a few more months before making a decision on his role, I can not fault that. In fact, I am not totally convinced Cuttino is / is not a member of our nucleus. But lets get to the heart of this post. Popeye, the fact that you know inside scoop is awesome. However, this awesomeness is surpassed only by the sad fact that I do not know any inside scoop, and I must therefore conjecture, with no small envy involved, that you are an NBA Inisder disguised as a guy named Popeye. This, my only attempt to unmask you, is borne of overwhelming jealousy. Top Ten People Who May Or May Not Be The True Identity Of Our Fine Poster "Popeye" (odds in parenthesis) 10. Kevin McHale (150:1) 9. Frank Layden, Jr. (130:1) 8. Melissa Tomjanovich (100:1) 7. Robin Williams (see 1980 film w/Shelly Duvall) (90:1) 6. Bill Fitch (50:1) 5. Dennis Rodman (28:1) 4. Lewis Lloyd (20:1) 3. Gene Peterson (4:1) 2. Del Harris (3:2) 1. Don Nelson Sr. (Pick 'em) Happy Holidays, all CBrownFanClub ps. I am actually Buck Johnson. [This message has been edited by CBrownFanClub (edited December 21, 1999).]
The 'Spur Thing' did not originate with Spurs. I vaguely remember the time some other team are complaining because Coach Fitch is not playing his starters and Ralph & Co. are snickering in their bench. We landed Olajuwon the next season after that incident. My point is, regardless of what any organizaition does it still come to individual players having the heart and concept of winning as a team. I am pretty sure other teams did the same thing one time or another. At any rate, there is still an element of luck in the process. So a lot of factors are involved. Putting together a great team is not an exact science. You could stack your chances by doing a lot of maneuvering (remember Charles getting minimum in order to land a hired gun, which of course turned out to be a bust) or doing a 'Spur Thing' but it still will not guarantee a championship. Now if you bottle up five MJ maybe that would work but it will be a Space Jam.
cbrownfanclub: none of those guys look like popeye (the robin williams thing was funny as hell by the way), but i'll guess del harris
Well Okay I certainly have gotten long-winded in this thread. Over the last couple of days I have sounded sanctimonious, argumentative and even rambling at times. So I'll answer one last time, and end any further effort to address this threads issues. 1. The very fact that I or anyone else here is not employed by the Rockets or any other team does not mean we do not have insight, relevent opinion or knowledge of any given subject. As a matter of fact, I do know quite a bit of non-public information, and I have been involved in sports most of my (almost) fifty years. That does not make me more valuable, more noteworthy or my opinion any easier to digest. Because, the main thrust of my argument was based more from a common sense perspective, than anything else. 2. "Attack Mode" was admittedly not germaine to the point I was making, and I apologized for that tone to the appropriate person. I hope he/she accepted as such. Someone else bringing it up again,(sanctimonious put downs", etc...) speaks more of their agenda than mine. 3. If anyone wishes to call the repeated factors I mentioned as not "saying anything", then I will repeat them. Rudy says he wants a team of winners this season. A team that will focus on this season. Then gives interviews and repeatedly discusses next year's draft, next season's possibilities, next year's possible returning players, next year's opportunities, etc... THIS IS THE FOCUS OF MY OBJECTION TO THIS ISSUE ... this team needs to feel that the entire team, players, coaches and management are doing everything possible to be competitive this year. I think the players are. I do not think management is. 4. While opportunities exist, and despite having listed them repeatedly I am pronounced as "not offering any solutions"(my paraphrased quotes).Well, lets go over them again ... (a) Mack will not raise this team to pinnacles of success. But he does absolutely nothing for us on the sidelines either, nor is he being used as trade despite offers that are presently on the table. (b) Talks that were on-going between the Rockets and several other teams prior to the Barkley injury have now ended. Not because the offers are invalid or less valid than before, but because management wants to leave things as they are. They are saying no to some. But they are clearly ignoring other inquiries. That was the reference to the "pick up the phone" business. Now, I am sorry if individually you cannot, or will not believe these talks and offers exist. I know they do. Wait. Is that making me out to be a "GM in training"? All knowing? A batphone owner? Gee, now who is being sanctimonious and in attack mode? Back to the subject: This lack of addressing some obvious and glaring needs, coupled with the "next year" focus hints to me as a "tanked season" mindset. 5. I find the very idea of a "tanked" or "washed" season as reprehensible. I alluded to that impassioned feeling many times. I expressed the opinion that anyone ... pro or otherwise ... player or management, within the Rockets organization, who felt that this season was a "complete wash" would harm this team enormously. 6. Lastly, I feel that management and this means Les, CD, RT and others should do absolutely everything in their power to show they are committed to winning this year. The obvious demonstration of that would be to look serious at and maybe move towards getting some help as support to the present roster. We have slots, exemptions, bubble players, and mack to dangle out there. PS: For the ones who sent me the nasty emails anonymously: sign your names,cowards. Can't spell worth poop today. [This message has been edited by popeye (edited December 21, 1999).]
