Originally posted by jcage I am sorry Timing I did not know you were a fortune teller, also How in the world can you know this. I am not saying that Yao will or will have the type of success those guys had, but let him play the games. People on here are saying he's going to be better than Tim Duncan and on par with Kareem and you're telling me let him play the games? I think my prediction, if you want to call it that, has the much greater odds stacked firmly behind it. I'd bet that you bet on the Rams to win the Super Bowl. Actually I predicted the Patriots, you can go look up that thread in the hangout. I love a good underdog. If you open your eyes just a little bit then you might see that when you add the fact that Yao has yet to recieve any NBA coaching, training, or play with guards the callibar of our, then you might see that his potential for greatness is no long shot. Every player in the entire draft has yet to receive NBA coaching, training, or play with the caliber of players in the NBA. Are we going to predict them all to be Hall of Famers? Jay Williams is Oscar Robertson, Mike Dunleavy is Jerry West, and Yao is Jabbar? Nah. Look at what the benefits of proper coaching did for KT, he has been improving every year (made great strides last year). So before you trash the guy give him a chance. C'mooooooooon...
Originally posted by crash5179 According to your logic a team should be willing to trade the rights to Lebron James for a proven 15 point a game scorer, after all what has James ever done in the NBA right? Paul Pierce isn't a 15 point/game scorer so no. There is a such thing as acceptable risks and Yao's potential makes the risk that he might not be better than Peirce or O'Neal acceptable. But even you said Yao’s upside was bigger than Peirce’s or O’Neal’s. Sure the Rockets can see it as an acceptable risk, especially with how weak the center position is around the league. That doesn't mean that the case can't be made to trade Yao for Paul Pierce. Yao does have bigger upside because of his skill level, size, and NBA weakness at the position but I don't think it's fair to say that Yao is as likely to reach his lofty potential as Pierce or O'Neal are to reach theirs. It's definitely a risk/reward thing. And if you think Dream was not as dominant or more dominant than Jordan in the early years or if Dream and Malone were not on the same level as Kareem then this is where our debate ends. You obviously did not get to watch Malone dominate (not just out play) Kareem in the 1980 play offs and again with Philly in the finals a couple of years later. No I didn't see that series but I wouldn't say one on one matchups are necessarily indicative of league dominance. Some players don't match up well with others, Ostertag/Sabonis/Eaton vs Olajuwon for instance. None of those three guys can hold a candle to Hakeem but they've given him fits and made him look bad from time to time. I'm in no way comparing Moses Malone to those scrubs, simply showing how great players can encounter matchup problems. In 1987 do you really believe the Bulls would not have seriously considered trading Jordan for Dream? Please. In 86-87 Jordan averaged 37 points/game and in 87-88 he averaged 35 points/game shooting 53% from the field. Those two seasons are among the most dominating offensive displays in league history. There is no way in hell they would have traded Jordan for Dream at that point.
In 1985-1986 Hakeem avg’d: 11.5 rebounds a game .525 F/G% 23.5 pts a game 2 assists a game 2 steals a game 3.5 blocked shots a game Top ten in all categories with the exception of assists. He had just lead the Rockets past the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals where he dominated Kareem and made his first appearance in the Finals. In 85, 86 and 87 MJ was still viewed as a selfish player that scored his points at the expense of the team. dominant big men were still seen as much more valuable than dominant guards and Hakeem was the best center in the league and had already lead his team to the finals where as Jordan was still a long way away from leading the Bulls to the finals. Jordan was seen as a great one on one player that could score but was not thought of as being in the same class as Bird or Magic. If you seriously think that the Bulls would not have considered trading MJ for the best center in the league in 86 or 87 then you are nuts. BTW I just want to make certain that you understand that I am talking mid 80's not late 80's and on.
Pfffffffffffft... Jordan in 87-88 was the MVP and Defensive Player of the Year. In 86 Jordan set the all-time single game playoff record with 63 points against the Celtics in Boston Gaaaaaden. I think you're the one who's seriously nuts. Maybe you should put up a poll without names and post Jordan's and Hakeem's stats from either 86-87 or 87-88 and lets see who's picking what.
Man - what a post. From trading ming for J Oneil to talking about stockton. too much. Thanks for the freebie Jrazz
Geez.. give the guy a break. All he did was ask a question. There's no need to insult him, call him a troll or belittle him because he only has one post. Have some class.
I feel very sad. Yao Ming even dont play one game in NBA for Rockets. And you guys are talking about trading him.
What does Russel, Wilt, Walton, Big E, Kareem, Sikma, Parish, Malone, Lambeer all have in comon? They were all dominating centers on teams that won NBA championships before the Bulls did it with out one. How many teams won NBA championships with out dominating centers before the Bulls? Did any? The attitude then was that you had to have a dominating center to win a championship and Jordan was not a dominating center. He was not even considered the best or 2nd best non-center at the time. Believe what you want but both Bird and Magic were considered better players than Jordan until he started winning championships. I guess you forgot that the Bulls once tried to trade Jordan to the Rockets for Sampson. And you think that they would not have consider a trade for Dream in the mid 80s. I think it's safe to say that if the Bulls had called to trade Jordan for Dream in the summer of 87 then Ray Patterson would have hung up the phone
I didn't know this bit of history. I guess that's when I left Houston and lost touch for a while. I still think the Rox should have traded Sampson in 84 to Portland for Drexler and their #2 pick and got Dream and Jordan #1&2. We'd have 2 talented wingmen with a talented center instead of 2 centers competing for space in the paint. Well, that's just a dream.
I like when you guys reply to each section of someone else's post with seperate sections for each point made in order to make a counterpoint to everything the other person said. Thus creating a huge rant post. It would be cool if the person who had been responded too then responed to the response with a section by section layout to counter each counterpoint. This could go on forever until each post is 10,000 pages long.....
Yao is going to be one of the cornerstones of our franchise. How can we be thinking of trading someone we haven't even seen play in the nba yet? We saw him at the worlds and he showed alot of skill and promise. I dont think we should give up the guy yet. I agree that he will get knocked around a bit, but he's only 22. Hes young and hes a quick learner. Lets see what the big man can do b4 we just blindly trade him away. In the long run we wont be dissapointed. Again who was voted the best center in the worlds? That means better than J. O'Neal and Wallace. Give the guy time.
Originally posted by crash5179 He was not even considered the best or 2nd best non-center at the time. Believe what you want but both Bird and Magic were considered better players than Jordan until he started winning championships. From 86-87 to 89-90, his years before winning his first title, Jordan was an All-Star 4 times, first team All-NBA 4 times, first team All-Defense 3 times, won the 88 MVP, won Defensive Player of the Year in 88, finished second for MVP in 87, and led the league in scoring 4 times. Read what Larry Bird said after MJ dropped 63 on him in the 86 playoffs. Larry Bird won the MVP that season by the way and the 86 Celtics are considered by many to be one of the greatest teams ever. "I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael did to us," he said. "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan." http://players.nba.com/jordan/earlyyears.html I guess you forgot that the Bulls once tried to trade Jordan to the Rockets for Sampson. And you think that they would not have consider a trade for Dream in the mid 80s. I think it's safe to say that if the Bulls had called to trade Jordan for Dream in the summer of 87 then Ray Patterson would have hung up the phone From what I understand the trade talk involved Jordan before he ever played in the NBA. I doubt this trade was ever on the table from Chicago's side after Jordan's rookie year. Patterson may have hung up the phone but he's also the guy who wouldn't trade Sampson for Jordan. Look how great that turned out.
I am with Timing on this one. Many of the rest of the people responding in this thread points are pretty hypocritical. I have read, "How can you trade him, he has not even played a game yet?", but you are not willing to trade him for someone who has and is a proven player in the league. This is the most hypocritical statement I have read on here, in one sentence you say he is unproven but you would not trade him for anyone in league who is proven. I have read he is only 22, give him time, yet pretty much everyone in here has written off all the 19 year old centers from the 01 draft. Again very hypocritical. I understand because I am a Rockets fan and hope the best for Ming, but I am not completely blind to the situation. Not in this thread,but countless others have been started saying John Doe said Ming is not the best prospect ever. Then, in the thread it says John Doe is a complete idiot, he knows nothing about basketball, even though he played professionally for 15 years and you all have never stepped on a pro court. I am just saying Ming is not the savior. Give him time and hope he pans out to be a good player, but don't put your expectations so high they can't be reached and you are disappointed.
I was going to saying something to T-Man but what for. This is a waist of time. somebody just close this thread. No matter what, I hope Ming does well and the Rockets do well as a result. Peace
Timing, if you really believe that Jordan was considered better than Magic or Bird before he started winning championships then you are either too young or was not watching the NBA in the 80's period. Get Real.
You don't trade him if you beleive he will be better than the guy you are trading for, even if that guy is a proven NBA player. I think as do many others that Yao will be better than either O'Neal or Peirce. Thats why we don't even want to consider trading Yao.
Even though Pierce is a great player, the team needs Yao Ming. If we didn't have Ming, but somehow Pierce (or equivalent) instead, Pierce would make the team "better". However, that would be an "addition" that would not transform the team like adding Yao Ming at the center position can. This isn't fantasy league basketball, bringing in "star" players isn't necessarily the solution. see Scottie Pippen. I think "importance to the team" in adding a great player is paramount, to make certain the overall team improvement and team chemistry come first vs. just adding some great player at any position just to have that player. By addition, the player must immediately improve overall team offense/defense (yes both - they are supposedly stars) and allow teammates to perform at higher levels while simultaneously acheiving at their highest individual level. of course it is a given that they should perform individually at their position at not disappear, see Scottie Pippen. An example of a good addition is Drexler. He fit what we needed at the time, was a great player, and improved the whole team. I think keeping Yao Ming is the right choice - we need a great center and he fits overall team ball and should allow everyone else to acheive and maybe in some cases overacheive.
Thank you for the well thought out reply. I would not trade Yao Ming for anybody on the U.S. Team. My friends at Clutch BBS seem to be a might touchy. I didn't say I would trade the next dominate center in the NBA, I was curiouse about the active posters opinion. Where is the spell check button when I do a post? Cordially,
