I wouldn't trade Yao for just anybody, but the obvious come on. The obvious is of course Duncan and Shaq, and thats just the first two and main two that come to mind. I like Yao but I'm a realist, and reality states that those two players are alot better than Yao now. It seems that most of you are optimist, believing that Yao will be better than both, hell I hope your right. Oh Timing is it, I was with you on some of the things that you said, but by saying that Hakeem wasn't as Dominant as those other players is just not doing the research you did so much on all the other subjects you posted. Hakeem is the only player in the History of the NBA to be in the top ten in scoring, rebounding, blocks, and steals. Some might say he was better than all the guys that was named because he dominated in so many different fields of the game. Anyway I respect your opinions, I hope you respect mine.
What about for Labron James??? Many of the morons on hoopsworld actually rather have Labron... What are your thoughts after watching Ming play in the WBC? Personally, I think Labron will be ok but guys like him come along very often... Ming has the potential to revolutionize the game and become one of the top players of all time. I personally think he will be an ALL-NBA player in 3 years.... And in 7 years when he is at his prime, I think he has the potential for the following stats: 31 pts, 15 reb 5 blks (highest blk per game average ever!) 4 assist 65% FG 80 FT% Dream was good but Dream had alot of tough competition during his years (Kareem, Parish, Ewing, Robinson). Shaq will not be around in 6 years and Yao will have no one unless you count Duncan as a center....
I just don't get it. Why everyone keeps talking about trading Ming away? I have never heard the fans of a team debating trading their #1 pick away even before he plays a game. What's wrong with Ming?
Originally posted by crash5179 No but we were talking about trading him so the same argument applies. No it doesn't, there is no 26 points/game Paul Pierce in this draft or a Jermaine O'Neal 19pts/10 rebounds. Sabonis was a 31 year old rookie that had suffered a major injury. I think 15 pts and 8 rebounds a game is very good for someone like that. While it is acknowledged universally that he was not the same person as he was before the pre NBA injury it is also acknowledged universally that he was a pretty damn good player. And yes I think Yao has the potential to be better than the pre injury Sabonis. You believe Yao can be on par with Bird and Magic too, so? The 26 minutes per game is an example of those players ability to be healthy enough to play and play effectively. I think you already know that, don’t you. Staying healthy is the main thing you are worried about with Yao…right? Being healthy enough to play 26 minutes per game is not something I'd rather keep over Paul Pierce or Jermaine O'Neal. The center position in the NBA is at almost at an all time low. Outside of Shaq and his big toe, there are no Dreams, Ewings, Jabbars, Robinsons, Parishs or Malones like there were in the 80’s and early 90’s. The center position is atrocious right now so that's in Yao's favor however all of these guys played more than 26 minutes/game. If Yao is going to be Jabbar he'll need to be in the 35+ minute range which Rick Smits and Sabonis never reached in one season not even once. Go look at Hakeem's minutes in his MVP season, 41 minutes/game. Robinson's MVP season, 38 minutes/game. Shaq's MVP season, 40 minutes/game. I don't think an uninjured, perfectly healthy Yao is capable of 38-40 minutes/game for an entire NBA season, much less a fatigued, potentially injured Yao. When Ben Wallace and Vlade Divac are considered an all stars then that tells us all we need to know about the center position in the NBA today. Yao can pass, block shots and shoot the rock at a remarkable percentage so he does have the potential to impact the NBA like Jordan, Magic or Bird before his career is over. You're effectively taking shots in the dark with this potential stuff. What would you judge to be the likelihood of Yao's becoming a transcendent megastar the likes of Jordan compared to the likelihood that Yao will suffer career changing injuries? On one hand, top five player of all-time and on the other hand solid career with injuries. You make the call. I guess I'm not as quick to compare the potential of rookies with the accomplishments of legends like Bird, Magic, and Jordan. Not a problem, it shows that some big men have problems and some don’t. But if you are going to drop from 7’4” to 7’3” why not go ahead and drop to 7’2”? But it starts to get a little ridiculous doesn’t it. The whole point of this debate is to show you that the prospect of Yao being done in 3 or 4 years because his bones and joints will not support his height is getting just a little too paranoid. There are plenty of examples of players that have long effective careers that stood over 7’3” tall, of course none have the talent or potential that I think Yao has. There are plenty? Well name them. I just named 5 of 7 that came to mind with problems so go ahead and name those guys who haven't. Why don't we just limit it to guys who were regular starters at some point in their careers so you don't go Chuck Nevitt on me. Once again, you know the point I was making had to do with Yao’s health and not how good he would be so why not stop trying to re-define my words to make them fit your needs. I still think Yao has the potential to be in the same class as Dream, Malone, Kareem, Jordan, Bird and Magic. Well why don't we put a little wager on that. How many MVP's and titles does Yao have to win to be considered in the class with Jabbar, Jordan, Bird, and Magic? I don't consider Dream or Moses to be in that class, they're second tier IMHO. Dream was just as dominant if not more so than Jordan as a rookie and in his early years. Dream was the best center in the NBA almost from his first NBA season. Maybe Malone and Jabbar had a slight edge his first year but that was it. Also if the Rockets had managed to keep the team out of drug problems and injury problems then Dream might be wearing more than just two rings and he might have won a bunch of them in the 80’s. Exactly what makes you think Yao can not achieve the same type of success as Dream? I see Yao as having potential that is very similar to Kareem. Hey I'm a big Dream fan but seriously he's not in Jordan's league. There were a few seasons in there where Jordan actually shot a better % from the field than Hakeem, not to mention the number of times Jordan broke 30pts/game which Hakeem never came close to doing once. First reason is I have trouble seeing that is fatigue/injury. Second reason is that I doubt Steve Francis will defer to Yao at any point in their careers here which will not enable Yao to put up MVP type numbers (25 pts/12 rebound area), even if he could. I don't see anything in regards to Kareem's accomplishments however. Six MVP's and six championships! No way in hell. It is well known that Dream spent his summers at Fonde going up against Moses Malone. Players today have the summer pro leagues and other leagues they play in almost all summer long. We are constantly getting reports from Westside about Eddie or Cat or MoT. The Rockets will have Yao except for the WBC and Olympics. This is the agreement so Yao Ming will be spending a lot of his time in Houston during the off months working out in the Rockets off-season programs. Summer pro leagues aren't NBA or National Team competitions. There's no jetlag driving from Sugarland to Fonde and certainly no pressure in losing a pick up game. We're not talking about guards here. Yao is HUGE. He's not Mobley out there with his wiry 40 whatever minute playing self. That is good because none of them have the upside that Yao has. I feel pretty secure in saying that Rudy T and CD would not be willing to listen to offers of Oneal, Wallace or Peirce for Yao. I believe they'd think pretty hard about O'Neal or Pierce. Your upside comments are beginning to remind me of Leaf vs Manning. Upside isn't everything buddy! BTW don’t you find it just a little odd that O’Neal only avg’d 5 minutes a game less than Yao and his numbers paled in comparison? I do. He shot .510 from the floor, .432 from the line, 4.5 rebounds, 1.75 blocks and just 7.3 points against basically the same competition that Yao faced. I was pretty surprised that O'Neal played so poorly but he didn't just play that way against Yao, he did that against everyone he played. I think he was kind of lost and I believe he mentioned he was just exhausted from the season. We'll see how he does this season. I think he'll improve on last year but ya never know.
Cut the guy a break. He never said that he wanted to trade Ming (it may have been implied, but he didn't say it). Maybe he was just merely asking an opinion, or asking it sarcastically to point out how Ming showed up for the WC while O'neal didn't.
Even Wilt has only won two championships, compared to Jabbar's six, there's no doubt he'd own Jabbar if they face each other on the court. I'd take Wilt over Kareem in a heartbeat if I was to choose.
Has anyone noticed that there are 104+ replies to this one thread, and it took only the Jrazz's 1st post to annoy everyone on this BBS? Jrazz, congrats and good luck to knock off TroyBaros to be the mosted-hated poster....
Originally posted by Verbatim I guess you don't read very well, but then I think you are just typing as fast as you can to defend your position. That's OK, debate is good, calling me an idiot, well, it takes one to know one. And by the way, I really don't believe I insulted you. I apologize, it was a different poster who jumped into the fray that made the comment. Sorry, I should be more careful. Patriotic is what the Team should have being thinking about. The World Championships might not be popular with the fans... nevermind, you think what you want. The team was thinking patriotic, that's why they were there. Apparently a good number of players declined to play on the team. They were playing for their country. I don't think their poor performance is indicative of their love of country or patriotism. They were poorly prepared and ripe to get torched, it's just been a matter of time now. And really, it doesn't matter what we all think about Ming. He has to play in the NBA and then all questions will be answered. Then again, that won't be enough for you right? Unless he's the rookie of the year, takes the team to the finals and is the league and finals MVP, Ming is a bust. Yes Ming will answer all the questions and it's going to be fun as hell to watch. I'm not a Yao hater and doubt I've ever called him a bust at any point but I have been cautious to let Yao show his game on the court rather than listen to other people hype him. If anything I'm trying to have realistic expectations of what Yao will contribute instead of these "oh he will revolutionize basketball" type of predictions. I'd be satisfied with 12pts/8rebs/3blocks from Yao as a rookie. I think those are pretty realistic numbers. Will most people with some sort of basketball knowledge, knowing what the Rockets need, seeing the potential that Ming represents and seeing what he did in the Worlds, be willing to trade him for anyone on that 6th placed Team USA? Probably not. I could make the same statement about trading Paul Pierce for anyone on China's 12th place team. Actually it looks better when you say it with 12th place instead of 6th.
Yeah I see your point. I don't think those longevity numbers are necessarily indicative of dominating a league like Jordan, Bird, and Magic are perceived to have dominated. John Stockton for example is the all-time leader in assists and steals and has played with arguably the greatest power forward of all-time yet I don't think anyone outside of Utah would really consider him to be on Magic Johnson's level. I would say the same about Isiah Thomas, won two titles but not really on Magic's level. I guess dominant is a subjective term.
At this point, there are maybe 10 to 15 players you'd trade Yao for. But this "Not for anyone" thing is just sillly. I'd easily trade him for the following: Shaq Duncan Kobe Mcgrady Pierce (Theoretically) Steve Francis Nowitzki Gasol maybe Kevin Garnett The rights to next year's first round pick (Lebron James) Iverson That's 11. I'm not mentioning old players because you don't want to give up 10+ years in age difference in a trade. Otherwise there's Payton, Kidd, Webber, Finley, Alonzo Mourning.... But if you think about that list for ONE second, you'll realize that if there's only 11 players better than him, and only 2 of them are C's (Shaq and Duncan), you'll realize how good Ming is. Shaq only has 2 or 3 years left, and Duncan doesn't want to play C. Can anyone honestly say they'd say no to a Ming for Duncan deal? Ming for Garnett?
I'll only trade Yao for Duncan, Shaq or Kobe straight up. Won't give up Yao for anybody on the Dream Team 5. None of the other stars can bring the defensive presence that Yao brings. Kobe is an exception for his proven heart of a championship. Rarely does one find a complete package without unfixable flaws like Yao Ming. Garnett plus Wally for Yao will cut it, 'cuz we need someone who can score in the last seconds of a playoff game.
Alright, stop it with the trade Ming talk. We all know it's not going to happen for many reasons. I know it's fun to talk about it but what are we saying to Ming (who might just be lurking this very moment)? Sure it's be nice to trade him for some of the players mentioned but why would the Rockets to it? I didn't hear anything out of RT or CD that would indicate they would even think about it. And if you don't think the finanical impact of having Ming is not considered, then I don't know what to say. Timing, I know you are not a Yao hater (these days, they are sorta in hiding), and that you have a conservative estimate for Ming, which is good. I just hope you are wrong and it is Ming who surprises everyone. And since there are already high expectations for him, then I guess he's going have to be EVEN better than we all imagined And even if he is just an average/good rookie, I'd still like him for his off court demeanor. He's already shown more humor and style and heart than most of the showboats in the league. And about that World Championships, you're right, Team USA (5) was there and I assume they are trying their best to win for USA. But I just wish the cream of the crop would go instead of the 2nd team. Do you think a team of Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Iverson, and Kidd would lose any games? Oh well.
I am sorry Timing I did not know you were a fortune teller, also How in the world can you know this. I am not saying that Yao will or will have the type of success those guys had, but let him play the games. I'd bet that you bet on the Rams to win the Super Bowl. If you open your eyes just a little bit then you might see that when you add the fact that Yao has yet to recieve any NBA coaching, training, or play with guards the callibar of our, then you might see that his potential for greatness is no long shot. Look at what the benefits of proper coaching did for KT, he has been improving every year (made great strides last year). So before you trash the guy give him a chance.
Such a waste of time!!! Timing:-Yao ming does have the potential to be as great as the big time players you mentioned!! Memphis X:- Yao Ming will, after a short time lead the Rox as a 'Center Dominent Team'. I don't know how you could think otherwise. He is going to be the big star of the future Rox team!! robbie31580:- Yao Ming doesn't need our culture,he only needs to be tolerant to it. He has a greater culture of his own in China!
There are three types of Ming Haters: 1. Those who are going to be on Ming's team and are worried about their stats falling. 2. Those who are envious that their team isn't getting a Ming boost next season. 3. Those who are Rockets fans but are afraid of the hype surrounding Ming and want to quiet the frenzy so that if he turns out to not be as good as billed, Rockets fans won't be too let down. This is not counting the racist bastards that are out there. Anyway ya'll just need to stop. Because if nothing else, just like Wind and Sea just said, Rockets fans are going to increase by about 1 Billion next season and there is no other player in the league capable of that stat. Don't think Les doesn't realize that selling out the stadium will not be a problem next year. Some of the arguments about trades here are freaking hilarious. Ya'll need to learn some things about basketball finance, it's not like trading basketball cards.
While O'Neal might have been proven to be a nice addition, Ming seems to have potential that no one's ever seen before for his height. He's had 2 games where he didn't miss a shot! (FTs and FGs) He's a nice passer and seemingly unselfish player. Getting the ball or not he only took 8 shots in his final game... I can't see anyone more fit at that position to play with Francis, Mobley, and Griffin
Timing, According to your logic a team should be willing to trade the rights to Lebron James for a proven 15 point a game scorer, after all what has James ever done in the NBA right? There is a such thing as acceptable risks and Yao's potential makes the risk that he might not be better than Peirce or O'Neal acceptable. But even you said Yao’s upside was bigger than Peirce’s or O’Neal’s. And if you think Dream was not as dominant or more dominant than Jordan in the early years or if Dream and Malone were not on the same level as Kareem then this is where our debate ends. You obviously did not get to watch Malone dominate (not just out play) Kareem in the 1980 play offs and again with Philly in the finals a couple of years later. Malone has 3 MVP's of his own and he won them all when Kareem was in his prime. I think everyone looks at Dream as the best center the Rockets have ever had plus he also out played Kareem in 86 although Kareem was already past his prime. In 1987 do you really believe the Bulls would not have seriously considered trading Jordan for Dream? Please.
I just wanted to remind you of this before you come back and said something crazy like Yao does not have more upside than Peirce or O'Neal. This is the reason that we are drafting him and not trading him. We are convinced that his size is not going to cause any career ending injuries or stunt his growth there fore there is no reason to trade him. Maybe that makes sense.
I am amazed by the enthusiasm of my fellow posters to discuss trading away Ming before he plays a single game for us. What a way to welcome our #1 draft pick.
