85% of this board thinks he's some kind of Jason Kidd with a Steve Nash jumpshot and Magic Johnson court vision. I would really like to see if any NBA GM is dumb enough to think that also. How this board talks of him, we could trade him for AI, Jason Kidd, or KG. This is obviously wrong. I'm sick and tired of seeing all this Vspan talk. The guy hasn't proven anything, JL3 is obviously more effective and was given the same time he had earlier in the season. He is nothing more than a poor man's Carlos Arroyo on his best day. He's barely doing anything positive in garbage time against scrubs, how can he be expected to do something when playing against full time starters. We should throw him in with Bob Sura and get someone who fills a need. Melvin Ely, McDyess, Brevin Knight, and Damon Stoudamire are a couple of names that come to mind. Of course these guys are only coming in off the bench.
I obviously hope we do not trade him, as I think he is going to be something special and at an area this team is really really weak. There are really 2 sides to this question. 1. V-Span had his chance and sucked so bad he blew it - so he should shut up and work to get better. 2. V-Span never had a chance because he was playing out of position and not playing to his strengths. I fall into camp 2, but understand camp 1. This team will eventually need a new PG, and V-Span could be that guy, or he might not be, I would just like to see him get a chance at backup PG to really see what he has in the tank. Playing with scrubs in blowout wins is not really going to give you a good indicator....it is why the PER is kind of skewed as a stat. How would Rafer's PER look if he did not get to play with Yao and Tmac so much? Playing with better players sure helps...especially at the PG position...passing to NBA starters is way better than passing to marginal NBA talent. Anyway, everyone knows how I feel....I love V-Span's potential, and think we would be stronger if he develops, and I would like to get him developed STAT ! Carry on ! DD
trade sura and use our TE to fill needs, but dont trade spanoulis, you got to give him some PT before throwing him away
I agree with Dada. Vspan just needs to have the opportunities to learn and make mistakes. It's just that JVG is currently playing with no room for error, so that leaves vspan and novak completely out of the rotation. He is by no means a bad player. You can't expect someone to come from a completely different league to adjust and perform instantaneously when they are just given less than 10 minutes a night. If that was the case, Yao would of never become what he is today.
It's all about potential. I think Span has it but it's not just fully developed in terms of NBA level. Cuz he doesn't have it, we'll be seeing him somewhere else. I don't mind him getting traded so I can enjoy watching his game but I doubt it to happen soon. And if he happens to be that good, bye bye JVG.
Sextuple Double, If you could, take a little time and read the following post by Rox225, I think it is pretty damn good... I am not trying to say you are dead wrong or anything but I believe what Rox225 wrote has a point. Good PGs are precious in today's NBA, right now Rockets has the option to see if Bill turns out to be a real good one or a bust, or just trade him away for nothing, your call?
I don't think JVG's goal is or should be giving *you* a good indicator. And he gets to see plenty of VSpan in practice to see what he's capable of.
You don't seem to understand Player efficiency rating/PER. It is not like plus minus stat - it's generated from the stat lines the player puts up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating#Guiding_Principles_of_PER last year (and probably this year too, though I haven't checked lately) Rafer's PER is at the same mediocre level regardless of who's on the floor. Spanoulis' PER, owing to his poor shooting and high turnovers, is extremely bad - I mean abysmal bad, , as is his +/- and Roland Rating. In contrast, John Lucas III is posting an ok PER for a bench player and a good +/- and Roland Rating (though it has plunged a bit recently). As for the "Spanoulis doesn't get to play with good players" argument - that's bullsh-t. His PT came when the Rox were fully healthy. Spanoulis has spent a grand total of 7 minutes with neither Yao nor Tracy on the court. The rest of the lineups listed have had at least one of the two guys on there. http://www.82games.com/0607/06HOU4B.HTM Contrast this with John Lucas III. His PT has come only on a banged up squad, so as a consequence, he has spent 67 minutes with neither Yao nor Tracy, and has played virtually NO time with Yao on the court this season. .........yet, despite this, here's their respective ratings: Lucas 13.8 PER, +10.6 on/off court, +6.1 Roland Rating Spanoulis 4.7 PER -8.8 on/off court -8.8 Roland Rating Why does not playing with the starters constitute a crutch for Spanoulis? It certainly didn't hurt Lucas III - who spends far more time without them.
Send him to the Austin Toros and lets see what he can do. Azubuike passed the test after flubbing it bigtime here. DD can keep an eye on him then and report back. Vspan can get some real floor time and the offense might even be one that fits his style - it might actually move fast.
I'm saying if everyone sees this talent in him that I obviously don't, even in the world championships, then why don't we just ship him to somebody who'll try to harness it and get one of the names I mentioned. I never said trade him for nothing, all those guys I mentioned will give us something we need(maybe the exception of Mcdyess, even though he'll give us more than Vspan in terms of overall production) We traded Rudy Gay aka "The Alleged Superstar" and Stromile "Potential Keeps Me in the League" Swift for Shane Battier. Why can't we pull the trigger again on such a move. Brevin Knight and Damon are good PG's and have proven so. Right now JL3 has the minutes Vspan would have gotten, and it doesn't look to change within the near future. How many PG's come into the league with potential and don't do anything. Even PG who have proven to be great in their prior playing place turn out to be nothing in the league or didn't even make it. Steve Logan, Khalid El-Amin, Trajan Langdon, Tim Pickett, William Avery, Dan Dickau, Blake Stepp, Ed Cota, Brandin Knight, Troy Bell, and Scoonie Penn. I couldn't tell you where any of these guys are, and all of them are better than Vspan.
I don't think we'd get anything of value for him. I don't think there's anyone in the leauge who would give us anything for him. We gave him a three year contract...its not a huge amount of money, but why would any other team take a chance on him as they've seen nothing. That being said, I started off as a V-Span supporter, but especially after that article I think he can only do more harm than good on the Rockets. One poster said it was childish for Van Gundy not to play him because he doesn't fit into the system. How so? It would be childish not to play him because he doesn't like the guy or childish not to play the guy because you're trying to punish him. Not playing someone because he doesn't fit into the system is the perfect reason not to play someone. Everyone who supports V-Span says give him a chance, but that's not really feasible. Without Yao (even though the Rockets are playing excellent basketball) the Rockets are fighting to make sure we make the playoffs, to not layoff and fall behind. This would be the worst time to "experiement" in hopes that V-Span will become better and gel with the NBA more. The Rockets don't have that luxury. You can say that we're selling our future short because we want to win now, but that's not really true either. V-Span could become a good player in the NBA, but lets be honest - he'll never be Tracy or Yao. We have to play to win now because we have two stars in their prime (although I'm sure many will say Tracy is past his prime - maybe, but not far past). V-Span has proven unreliable with the ball. Did he get A LOT of playing time? No. But, what he did with the playing time he DID get (and keep in mind that earlier in the season it was not all garbage minutes) were not good. It's not wrong to want him to develop an outside shot, just like its not wrong to want Novak to do more than shoot outside shots. Frankly, that's what we need with the way the team is setup. I would think JVG would be a terrible coach if he decided to change his system of play to fit V-Span's needs. Sorry, that's not how it works. Become a star THEN a team may change to play your style, NOT the other way around. JVG gave him chances, maybe not as much as some would like, but the reality is, he didn't make the most of the chances he did get. Sure V-Span hustles and has a lot of heart, but you know what Ryan Bowen did too and I'm not mad that he's not still a Rocket! I don't think we can trade him, but I think its time he's off the active roster. The chemistry with the Rockets is supposed to be really good right now - the last thing we need is a malcontent. Its one thing when a guy like Allen Iverson complains - but when a late second rounder at the end of the bench starts complainaing...sorry, that's his problem, NOT the teams problem.
I wouldn't trade him for anything less than Steve Nash, Tony Parker or Manu Ginobli. VSpan is a sure bet HOFer and giving him up for anything less would be rape. Ask Yao he compared Nash to Vspan.
I think there is more to Vspan's story than what we know. From the beginning, JVG would always praise how aggressive and fearless he is then all of a sudden a few turnovers here and there, and he is stuck on the bench. Then punishment doesn't fit the crime. It's one of two things: 1. His skills aren't up to NBA standards.(highly debatable) 2. His attitude So my guess is that Vspan's attitude about his playing time might have rubbed off the wrong way with JVG. Look at Vspan's body language, never cracks a smile, never cheers on the team. Look at Novak, JL3, Padg. Of course, he isn't obligated to be happy but his body language tells the story. I trust what JVG is doing now. If we were in the practice everyday, we would probably think the same way. If Vspan is as great as we think he'll be, management, other players would demand he be playing and helping the team. We all complained about Boki getting more minutes, Stomile getting more opportunities but in the end, the coaches were right.
You are analyzing a minutia of data. Not enough data on VSpan to make the comparisons. I supposed JLIII's shooting percentages will have to continue until they hit 20% on the 3 point side and the 30s on the overall FG percentage before people see that he isn't efficient. By the way, VSpan had 2 games, coun't 'em 2, where he had high turnover rate. Both of those games were blowout wins for us. He was playing at the end of those games and he yucked it up a little. So what. We blew the other team out. I'm sure he tried some stuff he wouldn't normally do and I'm sure JVG butchered him for it in the dressing room. And I'm pretty sure he learned his lesson and won't do it again. You take away those 2 games and his turnover rate per 40 minutes is lower than Rafer's. Take away Rafer's 2 highest turnover games and take away VSpan's two highest turnover games, and their turnover rates per 40 minutes are the same. Here's some more. VSpan takes a shot every 4 minutes. Rafer takes a shot every 2.77 minutes he is on the floor. VSpan is a rookie with skills that has "earned" every bit the opportunity that JLIII has. The more minutes that JLIII plays (he now has played more than VSpan overall and definitely more than VSpan when you count minutes when the game is not decided), the less efficient JLIII has become. JLIII is now down to 1.02 points per shot. Rafer is a whopping 1.04 points per shot. VSpan in his limited garbage time minutes when he is trying to dish a piled up a few turnovers and then being forced to play shooting guard and standing in the corner is at 1.02 points per shot. JLIII hasn't "earned" more minutes. Rafer hasn't "earned" his minutes and VSpan hasn't "earned" the bench either. And more than all that, isn't it plain obvious from watching the game that neither Rafer, JLIII, nor Luther are getting it done at the point????? It's just that simple man. None of them have got it done at the point but yet all 3 of them have played and are playing more minutes. How low does JLIII's efficiency have to fall before he unearns the minutes he has been given? How low does Rafer's efficiency have to fall before he unearns any of his minutes? And don't use the argument that VSpan has to "earn" the minutes. It's too easy to show that he is just as efficient as the rest of them, even when given limited garbage time minutes playing the wrong position.
Good points Sam, the only difference I would say is that JL3 got to play at his natural position which is PG and it is also something he is more comfortable doing. Whereas V-Span was asked to play the shooting guard, when he is more of a "Ball in the hands" type of player. Catching and shooting is a far different feel than driving and dishing or finishing. I don't think V-Span is comfortable in a catch and shoot role..... At least IMHO that is. DD
Spnaoulis and Lucas have played virtually the same minutes so far. Why is this not valid? Next. LOL, so you're saying he's going to have to play badly before people think he's not a good player? Yeah, you're really going out on a limb there, Jo. No, actually he has more like 200 games. Go back and look at his european stats. Turnovers didn't magically become a problem for him this year, they've been a problem throughout his basketball career. He barely maintains a 1:1 A/TO ratio in all competitions. The rest of it is a nice elementary math but it doesn't look so hot in the face of reality. ] Hmmm....the numbers (and my eyes, I remmeber JL3 nearly saving our bacon vs. the Lakers) say you're wrong. Proof of this assertion? Zero? OK then...speculation on your part. Yeah, actualy they have, considering the sorry-ass numbers that Spanoulis put up. And if we're going to start deducting bad games, let's deduct Lucas' bad shooting game against Denver/Phoenix and all of a sudden his PPS goes way up. At least they don't hand out the ball like candy and can hit a shot every now and then. To about the level of Spanoulis. 4.7.......ouch. To about the level of Spanoulis. 4.7.......ouch. You certainly had a hard time with it...not that i blame you, generally proving that 4.7 = 13 is difficult. No matter how much you wish it was true, he got real minutes and is not a natural point guard. If you ever stop choosign to to believe otherwise, your life would be much clearer and happier.
Thank you SamFisher, the man is simply not getting it done when his chance comes. And JL3 got it done when it was his turn. From the day of his signing I been hearing all this great talk of him. "The PG of the future, the missing piece of the puzzle". "He'll become starter over Rafer and have major impact". Point Guards who switched teams and had major impact: Jason Kidd(Nets), Steve Nash(Suns), Magic Johnson(Lakers). No way was I gonna count all his supporters and divide them by the total number of members to find an exact percentage, but I'm sure that I'm pretty damn close, especially around the time of his signing. If I overestimated it it's because many have jumped off his bandwagon.
Hey, DD. Define 'Chance', please. Span's chance was a few minuets here and there? Chance has had almost that much chance. Is the guy Manu or TP or or or? Dadgummit, I don't know. And none of us do because he has not had an in-game legit 'chance'. Maybe he doesn't deserve a chance at this point, I don't know, but I wish he were on the court in rotation for two weeks to see for myself. I would bet cash money that if he were offered to Colangelo (along with Sura) for MoPete then MoPete would be in the Toy Shop.
