Good post, but this is my thought on a team. In order for a team to be a quality team they need 2 all stars or 1 all star and another who plays at a all star level. Very few times can a player carry a team like Hakeem did in 94, but he was the best player in the league, once teams started to adjust and the offense got bogged down, they traded for Clyde and we won again. Looking at the west and the top teams, other than SA, what team doesn't have the recipe above? Thats the main reason why the Rockets aren't on the same level as the other teams. Thats the main reason why the T'Wolves are now a elite team because now they have 2 all stars instead of 1. You can chase the last 30yrs and you'll find this theory is true. If Mobley were on a all star level. this team would be a playoff team like, but he's not. He's a good player and all, but he's barely top 15 at his position and I'm giving him some. This team doesn't have the pieces in place injured or not to be a serious threat, plain and simple. The Rockets can't stop trying to improve their team until those people either develop or are drafted/traded for. You are partially right that people, including myself has gotten spoiled in winning with the Rockets. Since 84, this team had had how many losing seasons,3 maybe 4 with most of those coming in the last 2 or 3 yrs? This team is only 1 player away from not only being a playoff team, but a contending team even with the Lakers an Shaq still playing. Going into next yr, if you can field Francis,Mobley,Lewis or Odom, and Griffin, then you wouldn't have a 1st round and out team, you would have a team that could matchup and outmatch anyone. Please don't tell me there isn't enough basketballs because if the Kings,Mavs,Bucks,and Nets can have 4-7 people in double figures, then we could too. Improvement can't ever stop unless you have 2 of the top 5 players in the league like the Lakers and even they turned over their roster.
I would agree that we should see how this team comes together unless something unpassable comes up. BUT I do take exception to the 'championships have spoiled us' line. We should EXPECT to field a championship caliber team. At a minimum we should EXPECT to make the playoffs. Setting our expectations lower than that would be pointless. If the Rockets don't field a team that can make the playoffs, looking at the coaching or the personnel is not really out of line. Good post though TheFreak!
This post is dumb and so are all you who agree. As noted above, Thorpe, Smith, Maxwell, Elie, Drexler. What kind of idiot isn't looking to make trades? You want to keep Jim Peterson, Allen Levell, Frank Johnson, Buck Johnson, post-wigout VMax? What are you, nuts? You're so cuddly and protective of "chemistry" for your little babies, and their fragile wittle egos. Grow up.This is a man's contest for money, not playground recess where no-one should hurt anywon's wittle feewings. Waaa!
So, the point is that you can win championships with average players, as long as you have the best player in the league? I could have told you that. All we need is to trade for Shaq, or better yet Michael or Hakeem in their prime. Having one of the greatest players of all time covers up alot of weaknesses. We don't have that luxury right now, so the problem areas show. Take away our third option (Taylor), change the rules to reduce the effectiveness of our one-on-one players, and we become mediocre.
Good post Freak. I think it really all comes down to role players. Guys that know their role in the system and can fit in with ease and not get in the way of the stars. The Rockets were primed with these types of players in their back-to-back championship years, as were the Lakers in 2000 and 2001, and the Spurs in 1999. If we have learned anything from the Portland Trailblazers, it is that talent at all positions doesnt neccessitate a championship year. When I watch our team, I see individuals playing, I dont see a true team out there on the court. Maybe this has to do with the ISO's, but I feel that it has more to do with the fact that guys DONT KNOW THEIR ROLES ON OUR TEAM. Many times we look lost. Many times everyone wants to be the hero. Only a few players come to mind on the current roster that actually know their role on the team. Surprisingly, Kelvin Cato has made a complete turnaround from his former underachieving self, and found his niche on the squad. In addition, Eddie Griffin knows where to be and although only 19, seems to have a good grasp on what his role now and in the future might be. I dont know if this comes back to coaching or what. In order for our team to be sucessful, our players have to know their role, and more importantly, be willing to accept those role's on our team.
The only trade that I would be in favor of would be a trade for a veteran player with some playoff experience. The Rockets have plenty of young players with talent, they need someone to gel it all together. The Rockets need a leader to get in peoples faces when the team is: (i) not passing the ball enough, (ii) making poor decisions, and (iii) not playing tough defense. These are the three main reasons why the Rockets lose games and Rudy needs help getting these points across. The only other hope is that we can show signfiant improvemnt next year, make the playoffs and hope to get Tim Duncan when his contract is up with San Antonio at the end of next season.
IMHO, the Rockets don't need anyone new to gel it together. Every year they have different lineups and/or different systems. This year it appears they have a very complicated system--complicated in that it depends upon the correct recognition of the defense and correct decisions by all 5 players on the court. As Oilpere stated in a post a little while back, if one player reacts incorrectly, or too slowly, the play is ruined. This is a high risk (for these reasons) offense that I'm not too much in favor of. It reminds me of the run-and-shoot offense in football that depends too much on the quarterback and receivers having a good day. That said, they're sticking with it. And we'll only see it succeed once everyone gains a level of experience and mastery of reading opposing defenses and an in-depth familiarity with each other. On the same note, look at the success of the Wizards with Jordan.
I disagree with The Freak and with everyone who agreed. Any trade opportunity that considerably improves the team should be taken. Chemistry is more volatile than talent. I think one needs a core to build around. From my perspective this core consists of Francis, Mobley and Griffin. I would not trade these players unless there are severe reasons to do it (such as one of these players not getting along at all with one of the other ones). I would always try to see if there is an opportunity to make a trade involving the other players on the team, though, that improves the overall talent level of the team, obviously also taking chemistry issues into consideration (no headcases, not trading away guys who are extremely important although their contribution does not show that much in the boxscores). Just because not competing for a title is the norm, not the exception doesn't mean that one should not try to compete for the title. So what's the point of pointing out that it is not the norm...
You didn't even understand the post, and you want to be insulting. That's brilliant. My response to the better objection is below. I think you're misunderstanding the point. If tomorrow, Denver wanted to trade Raef Lafrenz for Moochie Norris, I don't think anybody would object. What bothers TheFreak and others, is that most people on this board see trades as some sort of panacea for all the problems the Rockets currently face. This doesn't mean trades are a bad thing, but rather that they're not the only solution. I didn't see anywhere in his post that he said "you should only draft... trades are bad... free agency is bad." He's disgruntled with the fact that people aren't willign to give the current line-up a chance. Let's face it: the dream scenarios that the trade junkies on this board dredge up aren't going to come to pass, in all probability. Most deals in the NBA are pretty fair, or at least, they appear so when they're made.... since most GMs aren't idiots. Why make trades simply to trade? The only reason to do that is if you're certain the current line-up will fail, and you're simply trying to take a risk that the trade might help. I'd rather develop chemistry than play roulette, personally. And if that dream deal comes up... take it. But don't count on it or expect it. (hope I haven't misinterpreteted your statement, Freak)
Perhaps I have misunderstood The Freak - thanks for your interpretation haven, it makes more sense to me the way you put it. Just a couple of comments... True, but there are lopsided trades once in a while... (like the Francis trade...or, at some point, Seattle got Detlef Schrempf for Derrick McKey or something like that...another one would have been the one in which Detroit got Cliff Robinson for some scrub). And of course, I would be delighted if the Rockets found a way to pry away a really good player for one of our not-so-good players. And it's just fun to come up with these hypothetical scenarios once in a while, I think...obviously one knows that most likely, they are not going to happen...but it doesn't harm or hurt anyone if people sometimes try to play the fantasy GM... I would just like to point out that relying too much on chemistry carrying you to success might also be a way of playing roulette, since chemistry can come and go...just imagine Dallas with the three J's...at first, they got along great, then they all started dating the same chick (or something like that ) and the chemistry was down the drain...just imagine what will happen when Steve finds out that not only he, but also Cat is dating Drewdog's girlfriend!!!
Yeah, sometimes people use "chemistry" as another of those panaceas. I remember when our line-up was Stevie, Anderson, Walt, Kenny, and Dream... and chemistry was supposed to solve everything. I will agree there was a serious lack of talent there. Yeah, I guess you're right in that trades aren't always zero-sum. It would be nice if we could get in on a firesale, or something. Heh... but it still sucks to get on the board all the times and see all the proposals like: "Dudez, we lost agin last nite but if we did this I think we could win. I cheked this out at realgm.com so I know its tite. Kenny Walt Cato for Kobe Trade accepted. I think the Fakers would do this cuz They need a back-up for shaq and another shooter. And kenny has mad skillz." Wouldn't the board be better off without those ?
I think it comes down to opinion. Right now, I feel the Rockets do not have the necessary talent to be a great team. We can't EXPECT Griffin to reach Garnett like status, that's putting too much onto one person's shoulders. Great teams don't fall completely flat on their face when their best player goes out for 20 games, see the Kings without Webber. I don't expect a team to go 15-5 missing a Francis-like player, or even necessarily have a winning record, but 1-19 is a little extreme. In some minds, this team needs one more "cornerstone" type talent piece, and then only minor tinkerings to find the right combination of role players. We have great draft position, so some will just ride out the season, and expect to get that missing piece through the draft. I don't think the piece is there through the draft, so the next most logical place one could acquire it is via trade. I don't think anyone is looking to break up the team, just change the makeup of it. When people start suggesting to trade Francis and/or Griffin, (or trading Mobley for mid-round pick) is when it'll go overboard.
Thanks haven....that was a perfect interpretation. I'm just too lazy to explain myself. I don't see how anyone can say that this team doesn't have enough talent right now to eventually contend. Are two potential franchise players on the same team not enough? I mean, why not at least see how Griffin plays when he's, I don't know, old enough to drink, before making that judgement? Not to mention we also have another 20-point scorer in Mobley! Why wouldn't you let your cornerstones play together for a while before worrying about adding yet another cornerstone? Any addition should be complimentary -- spare parts. What champion ever knows who their top eight or nine guys are going to be years in advance? Whether this team eventually wins depends entirely on how good Francis and Griffin get. The focus, in my opinion, should be letting those players improve, and then trying to fit minor pieces around them over time; not continuing to acquire more and more players and build a complete roster in one or two years.
I apologize for calling the no trade talk supporters "dumb". You are not "dumb" people. You are clever, literate, intelligent fans. Once again, I am reminded to think twice before clicking that mouse button. Nevertheless, I expect more from such a group than a fan-site lovefest for the current roster, game plan, execution, and record. There is more than that here on this bbs, unlike some all happy-talk team sites, and I think that's a good thing. Trade talk is a way of getting at your priorities - what is the value of player, the goal for the team, the need to be addressed, the potential for future production, improvement and dividends? Each person who posts a proposal reveals an underlying set of assumptions about what skills and traits are valuable and what game plan they will support. It is instructive to compare players and try to determine how they might be used in other systems, what their relative merits and drawbacks are. When you talk about trading a player, if you try to be realistic and devise a trade that is in the realm of possibility, you must get past the highs and lows of single games and project the players real average productitivity and attempt to find a place where that product has value and can net a return. It is not a knee-jerk response - MJ sucked last nite - trade his sorry butt. btw - did you note Duncan's abysmal shooting performance last nite? A bad trade idea with bad underlying assumptions is quickly exposed. A bad idea will still point out the realtive superior worth of the current components. Good trade ideas, whether consummated or not, show consideration of the needs and values of the teams, and allow debate about the underlying assumptions for building a winner. That TRADE ACCEPTED thing is kind of dumb, though. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's just a tool for matching salaries. The Rockets have some nice pieces, but I think if we're going to try to beat the league's best players, and esp Shaq and Kobe, we need to figure out what we want from our best pieces, how we want to attack and how we want to defend, and who can do the job. Ok, I've typed enough. Best wishes, p
Nice going, Freak. Keep the dream alive! For me, I want to see how good the team is in the 2003-04 season. Francis will be 26, Mobley 28 and Griffin 21. That will be Griffin's 3rd year, 5th for Francis and 7th for Mobley. In addition, Taylor will have had time to fully recover and Kenny Thomas will also be a 5th-year guy (assuming both of them are here). At that point, if the team is still basically lottery fodder, there will be a legitimate reason to panic. It is really impossible to project how they will fare but it is fairly obvious that this team has its core group for the next few years and they intend to see where it goes. Now, I am perfectly willing to make a move if it makes the team better, but who isn't? If we can get Lewis, great. Those who talked about Elie, that was a deal for a 2nd round pick and though he was an important figure in the championships, he wasn't close to being an all star. Getting role players is quite different from stars. We have the stars that we will have for a while. If you don't like them, you probably are out of luck for a while unless Francis wants to leave. Otherwise, this is our team and they will be here until it is obvious they aren't enough. We don't have enough information to make that determination yet.
Good question. Here are ALL the shooting guards in the NBA as listed on ESPN. I found 13 who I wouldn't mind having in place of him but I don't necessarily think that all of them are better than him. I just marked the one's I thought would be equal to or better than. Abdul-Wahad, Tariq, Denver Nuggets Alexander, Courtney, Washington Wizards <b>Allen, Ray</b>, Milwaukee Bucks Anderson, Derek, Portland Trail Blazers Anderson, Nick, Memphis Grizzlies Anderson, Shandon, New York Knicks Arenas, Gilbert, Golden State Warriors Armstrong, Brandon, New Jersey Nets Artest, Ron, Chicago Bulls Barry, Brent, Seattle SuperSonics Barry, Jon, Detroit Pistons Bell, Charlie, Dallas Mavericks Bell, Raja, Philadelphia 76ers Bowen, Bruce, San Antonio Spurs Brewer, Jamison, Indiana Pacers Brown, Gerald, San Antonio Spurs Brown, Randy, Boston Celtics Brown, Tierre, Houston Rockets Brunson, Rick, Portland Trail Blazers <b>Bryant, Kobe</b>, Los Angeles Lakers Buckner, Greg, Dallas Mavericks Buechler, Jud, Orlando Magic Buford, Rodney, Memphis Grizzlies Butler, Mitchell, Portland Trail Blazers <b>Carter, Vince</b>, Toronto Raptors Christie, Doug, Sacramento Kings Crispin, Joe, Phoenix Suns Curry, Dell, Toronto Raptors Davis, Hubert, Washington Wizards Davis, Ricky, Cleveland Cavaliers Dickerson, Michael, Memphis Grizzlies Dooling, Keyon, Los Angeles Clippers Evans, Maurice, Minnesota Timberwolves <b>Finley, Michael</b>, Dallas Mavericks Forte, Joseph, Boston Celtics Fox, Rick, Los Angeles Lakers Gill, Kendall, Miami Heat Glover, Dion, Atlanta Hawks Griffin, Adrian, Dallas Mavericks Guyton, A.J., Chicago Bulls <b>Hamilton, Richard</b>, Washington Wizards <b>Hardaway, Anfernee</b>, Phoenix Suns Harris, Lucious, New Jersey Nets Hassell, Trenton, Chicago Bulls Hoiberg, Fred, Chicago Bulls House, Eddie, Miami Heat <b>Houston, Allan</b>, New York Knicks Hunter, Lindsey, Los Angeles Lakers <b>Iverson, Allen</b>, Philadelphia 76ers Jackson, Bobby, Sacramento Kings Jackson, Jermaine, Toronto Raptors Jackson, Jim, Miami Heat James, Mike, Miami Heat Johnson, DerMarr, Atlanta Hawks Jones, Damon, Detroit Pistons Jones, Eddie, Miami Heat Kerr, Steve, Portland Trail Blazers Kittles, Kerry, New Jersey Nets Langdon, Trajan, Cleveland Cavaliers LaRue, Rusty, Utah Jazz Lenard, Voshon, Denver Nuggets Lewis, Quincy, Utah Jazz Lopez, Felipe, Minnesota Timberwolves Maggette, Corey, Los Angeles Clippers Majerle, Dan, Phoenix Suns <b>McGrady, Tracy</b>, Orlando Magic McKie, Aaron, Philadelphia 76ers <b>Mercer, Ron</b>, Chicago Bulls Miller, Reggie, Indiana Pacers Mobley, Cuttino, Houston Rockets Palacio, Milt, Boston Celtics Peeler, Anthony, Minnesota Timberwolves Person, Wesley, Cleveland Cavaliers Piatkowski, Eric, Los Angeles Clippers Postell, Lavor, New York Knicks Redd, Michael, Milwaukee Bucks Richardson, Jason, Golden State Warriors Richardson, Norm, Indiana Pacers Richardson, Quentin, Los Angeles Clippers Richmond, Mitch, Los Angeles Lakers Robinson, Larry, New York Knicks Sasser, Jeryl, Orlando Magic Scott, Dennis, Los Angeles Lakers Simmons, Bobby, Washington Wizards Simon, Miles, Los Angeles Clippers Smith, Charles, San Antonio Spurs Smith, Steve, San Antonio Spurs <b>Sprewell, Latrell</b>, New York Knicks <b>Stackhouse, Jerry</b>, Detroit Pistons Starks, John, Utah Jazz Stevenson, DeShawn, Utah Jazz Stith, Bryant, Cleveland Cavaliers Stojakovic, Predrag, Sacramento Kings Strickland, Erick, Boston Celtics Sura, Bob, Golden State Warriors <b>Szczerbiak, Wally</b>, Minnesota Timberwolves Terry, Jason, Atlanta Hawks Torres, Oscar, Houston Rockets Trepagnier, Jeff, Cleveland Cavaliers Wells, Bonzi, Portland Trail Blazers Wesley, David, Charlotte Hornets Whitney, Chris, Washington Wizards Williams, Eric, Boston Celtics Young, Galen, Indiana Pacers
