you, sir, are the obnoxious maximus of the bbs board. actually, hey, we dont need a kevin durant, we just need a kobe bryant and a lebron james!!! you just keep your flag waving and watching the L's coming
This coming from "Kwame"? lol Everybody knew 4 years later that Gay would be better than Battier. EVERYBODY. Arguing this now is pointless. ...and yet what has Rudy done? He's the leader of a crappy team. Yea!
This is the only valid argument for being against the Gay trade. cap relief from Slowmile Swift+Career role player <8th lottery pick. Unfortunately very few from the "gay camp" see things this clearly. All they see is the 22 pts and 7 rebs and forget about important stuff like how rudy gay is actually making max money and that memphis is still a lottery team despite paying gay the max. oh well the grass is always greener on the other side.
That means he would jump ship one way or another in order to get himself to this top-dog-in-bad-team position and get paid. Joe Johnson did himself good.
Had we not been decimated by injuries and things worked out with a healthy Yao and T-mac being combined with Battier, Brooks, Scola, Landry, Alston The trade would have worked out. Rudy Gay took a while to get where he is, and would have taken longer playing behind t-mac. The Rockets went for what they thought could help them win a championship now. Not stockpiling the best talent. I don't blame them for executing this trade. It looks bad in hindsight, but credit them for going for the ring.
My exact thoughts, I knew Gay would have been that perfect 3rd option that every contender had except us ... plus knowing T-mac wasn't going to last long due to his chronic back spasms he would have been a good replacement for the future also.
Rookies almost NEVER contribute in meaningful ways to contending teams. So you are advocating developing young talent over a chase for the ring?
First it was Kyle Lowry = Rajon Rondo on Clutchfans, next it was Courtney Lee > Ariza, and now it's Kevin Martin = Rudy Gay. Wow, what's next? Chuck Hayes = Shaq in his prime? Other than the fact that Rudy Gay does other things besides score, here's one big difference between the two: While Rudy Gay hits game-winners over the likes of Duncan and Lebron, one-dimensional Kevin Martin has pulled at least 10 4th qtr disappearing acts this season. When arguably the most talented player in the draft lands in your lap, you take him and don't look back. I don't care if your "advanced quantitative analysis" tells you to go after the "no-stats all-star" or to trade down and draft his European stepson. Oh I forgot, the Rockets were in "win now" mode, but what did Battier do to help the Rockets "win now"? Did he help the Grizzlies "win now" every year they were swept in the playoffs? Do you remember how he was a mediocre performer on the offensive end in the post-season for Memphis while he and his "elite defense" were getting torched by Dirk on the other end? Cue the excuses for why the Rockets didn't "win now", but just remember even when everybody was healthy, Battier was outplayed by Matt Harpring (a bench player who's no longer in the NBA) in the Utah series. What do you want to bring up next? How he makes Kobe "work so hard" for the 40 pts he drops on the Rockets That's one of my personal favorites, because let's assume that he does make Kobe score an "inefficient" 40, if true, it's completely offset by the FACT that Kobe can rest or do whatever he wants on the defensive end. Battier might as well go sit courtside on the offensive end. What is your excuse for Battier having never improved since entering the league, and actually regressing instead? What is the excuse for him having the worst ball handling skills of any starting wing in the NBA? Why does he just stand around the 3 pt line on offense, even when he's being guarded by Mo Williams? Why, for the past few seasons, have second tier wings like John Salmons been torching him? Why was Monta Ellis able to post Battier up, back him down, and then score on him as he wasn't even there? He's an "elite defender" right? Did you know that last year Orlando had two role players that they acquired via free agency (at different times) in Pietrus and Barnes that played solid D, gave you twice the offensive production of Battier, and combined made less $ than him? What did the Spurs give up to get Bowen? How many lottery picks did Boston trade for Posey? Did Maxwell or Elie cost anybody a lottery pick? See how it easy it is to find role players in this league? You don't have trade lottery picks for them. Role players bounce around and move from team to team. That's the nature of being a role player. You trade lottery picks for all-time great shooters like the Celtics did. Nevertheless, aren't role players supposed to make big plays when it counts the most? Look no further than the championship runs this organization had. If you can't remember that far back, go watch and see the big plays Ariza made in the postseason for the Lakers on their road to the championship. Why is it that Battier shrinks when the pressure is on, especially on the road? If you put Battier in Maxwell's place down 0-2 going into Phoenix, would this organization have any championships? You would think a guy we traded a #8 pick for would be able to step up in those kinds of moments. I'm sure the Battier apologists like yourself will come up with a litany of excuses, but it won't change how bad that trade was then and how it's even worse now. I know people bought into the "win now" propaganda. I know how some here would rather have scrappy players that are less talented, but work hard. I know those same people don't care about height, athleticism, and being a multi-dimensional basketball player. I also know it's unpopular to criticize Battier since he's such a nice guy. Although, in all fairness, I think a lot of people have simply not come to terms with how much of a mistake this trade was and have sought to justify it by using obscure stats, random numbers, unquestioned devotion, uncritical support, and all kinds of weird excuses instead of just admitting the Rockets screwed up. I believe I'm posting what some, maybe many, people are thinking. Whatever the case may be, I've chosen to combat the hero worship and blind support that this overpaid, over-hyped, and overrated role player receives. I just don't want a grievous mistake like this to be repeated again. The lesson that should be learned from all this: You don't trade lottery picks for role players, especially when role players are readily available via minor transactions and free agency. Also, for those that keep bringing up how the Rockets were able to unload Stro's contract (as if Battier's contract is something to write home about), just remember, as has been shown on this website, MLE deals are easy to move. There goes another excuse. One last thing, for those that keep bringing up Gay's new deal, the Rockets could have had Rudy for 4 yrs on a rookie deal and then pursued a role player like Battier via a minor transaction or free agency like the 29 other teams in the league do it. The Rockets would've then been in a position to be able to match any deal that Gay got or if the math didn't add up, they could let him walk. So there goes another "argument". And let me preempt all the Gay would not have developed or even played or contributed here in Houston by saying he would have been a good 3rd option instead of having a lineup where 60% of the starting 5 were offensively impotent (Battier, Hayes, and Alston), especially considering the fact that the two other guys were injury prone, so in reality Gay would have developed a lot quicker than many of you think. Except when they do. Lol, if you really believed the "win now" propaganda and felt that that team was going to contend for a ring then you're delusional. That's not even factoring in the injury problems, which is the reason why they were in the lottery to begin with. ...and yet what has Battier done? He's literally the leader of a crappier team. Yea!
WTF - who cares that was 4 years ago...they wanted Sefalosha anyway. Everyone knew Gay would eventually pass up Shane, but the point was they were trying to win with a healthy Yao and Tmac...THAT season. Isn't hindsight wonderful? It is like the bumping a thread, sucking hind tit. DD
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At the time, I felt that to really judge the trade you need to give it a few years. The Battier acquisition was a short-term deal, though I think the Rockets hoped that getting a player like Battier would somehow change the culture of the team and that could have longer-term benefits. The success of the trade would depend on the success of the team as a whole. Battier was meant to be an important piece in a championship-caliber team. He wasn't the scorer some hoped he could be, but then people forget that the Rockets brought in another wing that summer who was supposed to be the 3rd-scorer we needed and he flopped. Anyway, at the end of the day, it didn't work out. Its hard to say where the Rockets would be right now if they decided to draft and keep Rudy Gay instead, but Gay obviously developed into a good player and has skills the Rockets could really use. I would think, deep down, there are regrets.
Hindsight has nothing to do with it. It was an unpopular trade from the moment it happened. If anything, it was actually foresight. The deal stunk then and it stinks now.
How about talking about 1994, when I was in high school and became a Rockets fan.........................
Ok, so what? What good does dredging up this thread do, the trade happened, what can we do about it now? DD
Hello, Kwame. Usually whenever I post something here, I feel a certain obligation to shoot a zinger at Shane Battier. I don't suppose he deserves any of it, if you left it up to popular opinion. But one of the greatest movie lines ever was "…Deserves got nothin' t'do with it." (Clint Eastwood as William Munny - Unforgiven 1993). I can't tell the difference, personally, between an apologist and a critic here. Those hats get passed around more than a collection plate at a church service. But for the most part, I'd probably have to classify myself as a Battier-hater. And in that light, I'll offer to you what has helped me absorb that fateful trade all those long draft seasons ago—the satisfaction of knowing that stupidity (or short-sightedness, or "win now" or "salary dump" as it's more commonly called in these circles) is not exclusive to the lower social masses. Me, for instance. Nobody could logically justify trading a lottery pick for a situational role player for this reason alone: if everything was going to go as planned with Yao and McGrady, you were not going to have a decent lottery pick to replenish a roster that was gutted to acquire McGrady for a long time anyway. If anything, the '05-06 season was a FREE pick and player, and was worth a lot more than Shane Battier himself. The Rockets had nothing to lose by drafting a PLAYER that could potentially contribute. It's a lot like what happened when the Houston Texans in drafting Mario Williams, to me—Williams, at best, was rated a middle to late first round pick by all observers. Nobody was more surprised that Williams was drafted as high as he was than "Super Mario". But the Houston Texans, top to bottom, had a poor base of talent when Williams was drafted. For all the offers the Texans reportedly got for that draft position, they could have traded down and still drafted Williams, and perhaps a lot more players that they would spend the next couple of seasons asking to try out from off the street. As Daryl Morey has demonstrated himself, there's nothing wrong with having too may players who can play. So not drafting for TALENT that you otherwise would not have the opportunity to do in a perfect world, is not a "win now" move. Because now we're looking for a player to build around in the draft. That's not to say that Rudy Gay would have been the answer. Or that Thabo Sefolosa wouldn't have made a good Rocket. But in a competitive sport, where you need as many guys who can play as you can happen across, nothing justifies lateral moves in a "championship or bust" mindset. Robert Horry and Sam Cassell won two titles their first two seasons in the league with the Rockets. They were winners everywhere they played, and were worth the risk the Rockets placed in them. They even traded Horry to get his attention about how he had to be accountable on offense—no matter how many other things he did well. Glad that trade didn't go through. The caveat with Shane Battier has always been that he was never supposed to be the main guy here—Yao and McGrady were here for that—so any failure of the team would always bypass him. Battier was always a better politician than ballplayer to me, anyway. Love that Duke University pedigree. You win with GOOD players, Kwame. Shane Battier is a good guy, from all reports. The best of guys, considering his job. I like him. I'd buy him a drink and let him kiss my baby whenever he wanted. He has even done exactly what the Rockets wanted from him, honestly. The problem was the Rockets always needed more. And get more when they had the chance. You don't swing for the fences with a contact hitter. ....unless you're the Houston Astros.....
Thanks for reminding me. It had been so long I almost forgot that Memphis was actually making the playoffs when Battier was there, something they haven't done yet with Gay.
