Trade Francis, Start Mobes at the 2, Sign or Draft PG

You are overstating Hakeem's turnover average. Using 92-93, 93-94 and 94-95 he had 770 turnovers in 234 games for an average of 3.29.

 

What? Disagreeing with you?

he he he

 

excuse me all: I have to voice my fastbreak vent for the month. You know, I dropped down big bucks for tickets 3 yrs ago with the promise of a fastbreak....Pippen, Francis, Barkley...so bare with me, sometimes I just have to let this out.

grrrrr

Stat Police:

Hakeem never went over 3.5 TOs in those years, and never exceeded 3.9 his whole career.

Common Sense Police:

Francis dribbles himself into people's feet. I have never seen a so-called point guard slip on the floor, lose his handles, and dribble the ball off his foot as much as Steve Francis. I don't buy the "high difficult factor trying to do it all for the team" excuse. It is still a bad turnover due to playing beyond your ability with the dribble.

Steve's turnovers cannot be whitewashed. He has problems with protecting the ball.

As for assists: forget his assists going up on John Lucas's team, his assists would go up *on this team* if he could just run a fastbreak up the middle of the court. We consistently have games of 0-6 fastbreak points. For such a fast, young team, that is a problem that can't be explained away by better defense (ie, turnover fastbreaks) and perfect outlet passes--because 0-6 points doesn't really even cover the times we could have (or did) have the numbers.

Francis really does just skip up the court.

There is no reason to get defensive about Stevie not being a PG or even a hybrid PG (if someone could explain what that means to me). Stevie is a SG; we have two SGs...no problem....except we cannot run a fastbreak....grrrrrrrrrrr

Just because he is a SG, he can still learn to run a fastbreak up the middle of the court.

He really has no clue how to run a fastbreak like a true point guard, nor do I think he has the ability to; he is much more natural on the wing. He releases on rebounds up the wing, like he is expecting someone else to get the outlet. Watch him. He *always* releases up the wing, expects a lead pass and the defense just plays possum and waits for the long pass and pressures it. Stevie!!! go get the outlet and THEN run with it up the middle. The sooner the ball is in a dribbler's hands, the better the fastbreak, because he is the best passer (right) so he can advance it even further...but he needs to secure that outlet and get in the middle of the court. Just go to the top of the key Stevie, and if you get a long rebound....turn and run with it like Iverson does.

puedlfor: Stevie shows Shooting Guard mentality and skills in the way he runs the fastbreak and in the way he played wing ISO for two years, especially in his POM Honors in his rookie year. Even his high PNR (which came out of necessity when they started trapping him 25-30' out after POM Honers) is more a SG type of pick-n-roll, and Mobley (or someone) is on record saying Steve likes the high PNR so he can build momentum attacking the basket. Sounds like a SG mentality to me. He wants to threaten going to the air to the rim more than he speaks of freeing the roller for a shot.

 

It can be explained by a lack of fast break players though. Of the few fast breaks we do get, Mobley and Francis are the only players involved themajority of the time. I can't remember the last time I saw KT or Cato running the wing on a fast break.

But you could be right...it may be Francis. I'll try and look harder next time, but I think that I more often see Francis / Moochie running up the floor with nobody with them than Francis just skipping up the floor as everyone is running the break, or him just performing poorly when everyone is running.

 

Just to clarify, Terry has been moved back to the PG spot and is generally playing better than he did as a SG. His scoring is still around 19 pg, while his assists have moved up to about 7pg or slightly below (as a pg - not for the year). Not great assist numbers, but his a/to ratio is 2.3.

I think that he is definitely a "true" scoring pg, he just took a while to develop.

Personally, I like Davis better than Miller.

 

Your "of the few fast breaks we do get" is the whole point I'm making. It isn't the execution of a fastbreak that we started that I'm talking about (although execution is poor). It is the lost opportunities by not even trying, or failing to get in position for an outlet.

You cannot be a fastbreak team by running the wing without the ball with no one in the middle for the outlet. Francis takes off down the wing without the ball. The rebounder has to look up and locate him and then make a difficult, interceptable passing to around halfcourt, with Francis on the move.

That is not how fastbreaks are started. The PG goes to a predetermine spot on the court (top of key usually) and secures the outlet, then takes off. He can be on the move for the pass because it is a short pass and safe. John Wooden extended this to do short cross patterns or V-cuts (button hooks) to free the dribbler for the pass in the event defenses anticipated the spot for the outlet.

The problem with our fastbreak is not seen merely in what we do with our chances; the problem is failing to increase our chances by not even starting the fastbreak. It seems like we have to be 1 on 0, 1 on 1, 2 on 1 or 2 on 2 to even try to run a fastbreak. How often does that happen in a game, and does that make you a fastbreak team...no, it makes you a conservative, half-court team.

What is better:

3 fastbreak highlight reel dunks out of 6 fastbreak's run for 50%
or
8 fastbreak buckets out of 20 chances for 40%

note: a fastbreak that doesn't result in a fastbreak bucket still has about 17 seconds left on the clock. Before anyone says more fastbreaks means more fastbreak to's, well that's mighty fine logic; you'd make a good New York Knicks fan for why they slow it down.

 

I realize that and agree. But from what I've seen, just as often Steve does get the ball on the outlet and there is just no break there to be had. The defense is almost always already ahead of our other players. I can't remember the last time I saw KT make a conscious effort to beat his player down the court in case a fast break is started - and they have to do that. They can't just say..."well it looks like Francis isn't in position for a good outlet again, I myswell just walk up the court." To get the fast break working the whole team needs an atitude whereby everyone tries to beat their man up the court every single time.

 

You know this has been going on for 3 yrs, right. Shandon ran; Cuttino always runs. You see Willis take off. Walt will be there for the 3.

It starts with the point guard. This is not even a chicken and egg argument. It starts with the point guard. If he runs, everyone will run. People aren't running, because they know Francis never pushes it (or doesn't come back for the outlet) and really just wants to slow it down for a wing ISO or high PNR. It is not the other way around.

Especially when the PG is the leader of the team. He just says, "Run with me, dammit!" If they still don't run, the coach will find Jason Kidd someone who will.

We are a half-court team, and we have plenty of runners. That sucks. And ultimately it is the lack of a point guard who can and will run.

 

The only reason anyone mentions Duhan is because he has the easiest PG role perhaps since Kenny Smith's Rocket days (or maybe Derrick Fisher/Lindsey Hunter now). Even then the dude (Duhan) doesn't excell, comparing him in any sense having to do with playing the game of basketball to Jason Williams is a bad joke at Jason Williams' expense.

I agree with CP about Francis and the break. Everywhere Jason Kidd has gone the fast break has gone with him. Though only based on 1 pro team, a couple of college teams he lead far, and a couple of organized international games, it seems this way for Andre Miller too. I love the way both players pressure from the middle of the floor. I like everything else better about Francis than Miller, but do wish he would be the fast break more. I think it is more of a mentality than anything.

 

Well, if that's your opinion. Though, I couldn't quite follow what you were trying to say. But I think you'll be eating your words next season when Duhon's role will be expanded significantly. He'll be one of the top players in college his senior year.

 

Do I have to keep saying it?


Odom will solve all our problems. We would be lacking NOTHING with Odom in the lineup.

I'd take our chances in the Western Playoffs with a line-up like this:

Cato
Griffin
Odom
Mobley
Francis



Here's what I think/hope will happen:

Odom:

So far, the knock on him is the shooting abilities. It doesn't take a genius to know that he CAN play defense, and does everything fairly well other than shooting. Now, on the Clippers, he was easily 2nd option. But Brand is the closest thing they have to a go-to player. While we hae Francis, Mobley, and hopefully Griffin. Odom won't be under pressure to score as much, nut just enough to keep the defense honest. Having the highest scoring backcourt in the league sure would increase FG%, don't you think?


Francis:

Would be handling the ball less, would get more easy baskets via Odom, and would reduce his TO's simply due to Odom's presence. Cutting his responsibilities in half, I'd expect a tiny bit more scoring, less pressure-inspired boneheaded plays, and a hell of a lot more defense.



I don't see a better fit in the whole LEAGUE. The only thing Lewis would bring is 3-pt shooting and rebounding. You'll be glad to hear that Francis, Cato, Griffin, and Odom are each getting 10 rebounds on any given night (not in the same game). Rebounding definitely wouldn't be a problem. 3-pt shooting? Cat's 3-pt shot has improved drastically, I'm hoping Francis will become half decent in all FG% areas due to more easy baskets, and we'll have Rice, Eddie, and possibly Walt for 3's.


What more can you ask for?

 

I am basically saying Duhan is way overrated and has the easist job in college ball by playing on a team with JW, Boozer and the solid shooting Dunleavy. Your defense has to leave somebody open, it is usually Duhan (or Jones), and even then he doesn't excell at making you pay. I think by the next year or two no one will talk about Duhan but they will talk about his backcourt mate Ewing.

To keep this a Rockets thread, yeah, I would be very happy if the Rockets got to draft JW. I would figure out what to do with that problem later (trade SF, CM or JW).

 

Maybe they should change to a tall point forward scheme with Francis and Mobley free to roam around picks. I think that point forward would have to be able to shoot three pointers to draw the defense out. A Magic Johnson type approach. Maybe Rudy sees a future capability to do this in Griffin. Have francis bring the ball up court and then set up Griffin at the top.

 

Let's see how well Mobley plays when his best friend is traded away. The only reason Mobley re-signed with us last year is because of the relationship he has with Franchise.It would not be business, it wuld be very personal if Mobley lost his dynamic duo partner.We also traded away Hakeem The Dream, to make this team Stevie's, so let's wait till the Rashard Lewis and Lamar Odom sweepstakes are over and then we can think about making huge trades.

 

sane- it's like your reading my mind about odom. combine him with what we have and i think we're legitimate contenders in 2 or 3 years. i heard that he was having his wrist looked at and could have surgery on it. i wonder if this will effect/increase any chance we have at him. either way winning the lotto would probably guarantee us the ability to nab him.

 

Jeff,

Comparing Francis' turnover totals to Hakeem's is misleading. In Hakeem's prime years, he touched the ball on virtually every play.

On the current Rockets team, I would guess that Moochie Norris runs point about 25% of the team and the team runs a ton of ISO's for Cuttino and many for Kenny Thomas as well.

Francis does not handle the ball nearly as much as Hakeem did back in his time and yet gets a lot more TO's. It's pretty alarming.

If they kept a stat on "unforced Turnovers" I would guess Francis would lead the NBA. He dribbles the ball of his feet or just loses the ball more than any PG I've ever seen.

 

This year - Odom, Kandi, Dooling
Next year - Duncan

Mooch can win a title with that bunch.

Mooch, Dooling
Mobes (can get a raise when TD is here), Torres
Odom, KT
Duncan, Griffin, Taylor
Kandi, Cato ? (traded w/re-signed SF for TD ?), Taylor

Big money : Odom and Duncan. Mobes, Tayor, Kandi, et al. 45 mil payroll, < 40 if Taylor goes. New arena. Mulitiple titles, esp as Shaq feet break down.

Bottom line : PGS (heck, all G's) are replaceable. Big men aren't. Always acquire size if skills and Bird point value are =.


p

 

Pasox,

You just made my heart skip a beat.....I have been saying that on this board for over 3 years.

When dealing with equal talent, always take the taller player.

DaDakota

 

Shanderson did run and I remember our fast break being better the last few years. But Walt. He doesn't beat his player down the court consistently to fill a wing. He might end up as the trailer on some play, but run? Willis? These aren't players who bring to mind fast breaks. THe onyl players who runt he fast break with Francis this year have been Mobley and T-Mo. Nobody else does it and, regardless of PG attitude, that makes it hard to do.

 

Yes, bigger with equal talent is good. But, what do you judge them by? How do you decide if Duncan and Francis are equal?


But, it's like men and women peeing. Obviously, when you're closer to the pot, you're going to have a higher percentage shot, lol.