Trade Francis, Start Mobes at the 2, Sign or Draft PG

nice 2nd post

 

Right now, Mobes is as efficient as any backcourt guard in the nba. That being said, Francis' all around game is irreplacable, especially by a single PG. Everytime Steve gets a rebound, that means we gain possession.

You may say that Mooch isn't a suitable replacement for Steve (true), but who's a suitable replacement for Shaq.

Mobes doesn't do enough for the team to warrant trading Francis over him. If I wanted a pure scorer, I would take a guy like Miller or Houston. They are taller.

I'm not sure if Steve is a true PG. I think he can play SG ala Allen Iverson. He's bigger, more athletic, and shoots at a higher %. I think he shoots at a close rate as Cuttino, AFTER Cuttino's hot streak. Matter of fact, I think in his career, he has shot better than Mobely. Stevie haters just weren't as vocal as then.

What this team needs is a selfish Stevie Franchise who's willing to shoot his way out of a slump, ala Iverson. Right now, he's tentative and has no supporting cast. The Rockets may not be starving for talent, but there is alot of unrealized talent on this team. Most of our role players are one dimensional.

Also, I think Steve has to shoot more. Setting up Collier and Langhi can't help your assist numbers.

 

And you are so caught up in what a point guard SHOULD be, you used it as your freakin' nickname on the BBS. What a shock you don't think Francis is a point guard.

You want reasoning? Okey dokey.

Maybe someone should tell him that. He bailed on Vancouver because he swore up and down he was a point guard. He doesn't want to play the two and who could freakin' blame him? Most guys his size are overmatched at the two. Iverson mostly guards the LESSER of the opponents backcourt players (if there is one) and Snow (a bigger player) defends the better one.

You are convinced Francis is a point guard. Not everyone is. Your definition is not concrete set in stone. It is just an opinion just like the rest of us.

Without a doubt, however, he is also Steve's best friend and has played his best ball WITH Franics on the floor at the point. He stayed in Houston at Francis' bidding. Together, they make up one of the toughest backcourts in the NBA and you want to break that up because you don't think Francis is a point guard.

Again, the assumption that a player like Francis isn't a point guard. I guess Tim Hardaway scores too much and Nick Van Exel and Isaiah Thomas and Stephon Marbury and Tiny Archibald...

Not all point guards pass first. It isn't a requirement for the position. There is no rule that states it. There is no question Francis' assist to turnover ratio could improve but the guys who shoot the most almost ALWAYS turn the ball over the most. Hakeem, during his prime, averaged the same amount of turnovers Francis does now. Why? Because he had the ball most of the time.

Nevermind the fact that this is Francis' third year in the league and that he plays on a team where only one other player can claim to be his equal. Oh, and forget the fact that the Rockets are one of the worst shooting teams in the league. It helps your assist total when your teammates actually hit shots.

Finally, his best teammate (Mobley) almost always gets his shots unassisted because he starts the play with the ball in his hands. This isn't like Stockton/Malone where one guy waits for the other to get open and flings him the ball. This is a different kind of game.

Who exactly are you going to get to fill 20+ points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists per game?

Jesus, no. Hakeem, no. Franchise player, absolutely. As someone else pointed out, we are 2-20 (or something like that) without him on the floor. You think he doesn't make a big difference or isn't that important? Explain that number.

I was trying to be funny, but since you are hell bent on trying to get me to reason, there ya' go. Plenty of reasons for you.

I know that you have it in your head that point guards are supposed to be one thing, but you may need to change your perception if you are going to continue rooting for the Rockets because Francis isn't moving from Houston or from the point guard spot on the floor.

 

Damn. Fine. Post.

 

Well ****, there are a dozen players I would trade Steve for. I can't think of a PG I would rather have. Don't say Payton, because he is 35.

 

I think Francis is a Star, he is not a superstar, but a star.

The only issue I have is that he does not play defense and makes very questionable decisions with the basketball.

He turns it over way too much by trying to be fancy and losing the ball, his handles are not as good as he thinks they are...and that causes 1-2 turnovers a game.

However, I think a lot of this is due to immaturity, and the longer he plays the better he will understand what to do.....of course the first thing is that he needs to commit to defense.

I actually think that Steve and Cat would have benefitted by being on a veteran team with a vocal leader for more then one year, they both are supposed to lead this team, and neither one of them really knows how to LEAD a team.

LEADING is crucial...and both Steve and Cat have no clue how to lead.

They will one day...hopefully soon.

DaDakota


PS. I would consider trading Steve for Andre Miller, but not sure I would pull the trigger, but I WOULD consider it. Cat for Miller would happen in a nanosecond.

 

DAMN. FINE. POST. Part II

 

dada, not the steve v andre argument again, ahhhh!

anyways i agree with the rest of your post, steve needs to seriously work on his defense before he becomes the elite of the elite. but his decision making should get better with maturity, i thinkhe's still just learning the position.

 

Lying sack of ****. You were ready to trade Steve for Tyronn Lue and a bag of balls in chat last night.

 

How about trading Steve, KT, Morris, our pick, and the Toronto Pick for Duncan and Daniels or Parker.

We cut down on our glut at power forward, get one of the two best players in the league, and pick up a point guard to replace Steve.

The Spurs get something in return for Duncan. They would receive a competent power forward, a combo forward with potential, an all-star point guard, and two picks, one of them very high in the lottery.

Of course this would need to happen after we extend Steve and pick up KT's option. Probably in the offseason of Duncan's contract year. The picks would be whatever players we pick this season. The only reason the Spurs would accept this is because they will not be able to resign Duncan, IMO, and I feel that this will be a competetive offer.

Rockets
1 - Parker, Norris
2 - Mobley, Torres
3 - Rice, Griffin
4 - Taylor, Griffin
5 - Duncan, Cato

Spurs
1 - Francis, Daniels
2 - Smith, Daniels
3 - Bowen, Morris
4 - Thomas, Rose, Draft Pick (Toronto, Boozer?)
5 - Draft Pick (Stoudamire, Ming, Marcus, whoever), a very old Robinson

 

I recognize Steve doesn't WANT to play the 2...but I personally think he's better suited to be a 2 than a 1. The guy is a flat out scorer...he has the ability to take over a game that way. I think we really limit him by putting on the shackles of the role of "playmaker." I'd like to see him off the ball more and being set up to score...and of course I'd like to see the entire backcourt commit to playing some serious defense!!!

 

Okay. First of all. Its been suggested that we trade Mobley and move Francis to the two. This seems pretty stupid to me for one big reason. Mobley is a better offensive player than Francis!!!! Mobley can create his shot better, he can shoot off balance better, he can shoot the three's better, he can shoot free throws better! Mobley is about the most ideal shooting guard there is. Not to mention that he's probably the best bargain in the league. Pesonally, I'd rather have Mobley playing the two than Francis. There's players that make twice as much as Mobley, yet don't contribute as much. I still believe in the Rockets management, but if they traded Cuttino that would be it for me.

And yes, I would consider trading Francis, but I sure as hell wouldn't consider trading him for any other point guard in the league. Who really is there? Miller? Please, he's really doing wonders for the Cavs in the pathetic eastern conference. There's maybe 5 frontcourt players that I'd say have as much value(age/ability) as Francis, and that's it. And as far as trying to get Jason Williams in the draft. You haven't seen a shoot first, pass second point guard until you've seen Jwill.

But getting back to those who seem to be so sure that Francis is a two and not a one, I don't really follow. Is Steve really that great of an outside shooter? Maybe its partly due to his migraines, but he hasn't been a good outside shooter by any stretch of the imagination this season. 31% 3-point%. And then for those of you complaining about Steve's defense. I guess you are saying you'd rather Steve be guarding the other team's "scorer" rather than there "passer." Doesn't make much sense. And lastly, Steve doesn't really create his shot very often. He has a little dip move that he does when facing a player to get a jump shot, but that's about it. He rarely takes really wild shots, which tells me he's not really looking to score as much as some of you would suggest. But Steve is an unbelievable penetrator! He dishes the ball off really well. I bet you 75% of Cato's points come from assists that Francis gave to Cato for a wide open dunk. Now THAT is an assist, and I don't think too many other players can do that. The Rockets just don't have too many spot-up shooters. Walt and Eddie are about the only two, and they don't play too much. I'm sure if Francis had a Wesley Person who just stands on the outside, catches the ball, and shoots it in the basket his assist numbers would be a lot higher, but that doesn't really seem like much of an assist to me.

On a side note: this is the reason I'd take Rashard over Odom. It would give the Rockets a full-time spot-up shooter. Odom can't shoot to save his life.

 

It's an interesting thought, but it simply boils down to 2 things:

1) Francis is not going anywhere - he is the cornerstone of this franchise.
2) Do you think that Mobley would be happy if Francis was traded after he decided to stay for less money? I think he would be royally pissed at Rockets Mgmt for doing that.

I think, as much as I hate to say this, it would be better to have Mobley play the 3 and move Francis to the 2 IF we can get a "pure" PG (by your definition) in like an Andre Miller (Moochie Norris?? Umm...no). But even then, you risk alienating Francis to the point where he would want out of Houston plus I don't see how we can keep both Francis and Mobley in obtaining this "pure" PG.

So, really this is a moot point, but interesting nonetheless.

 

First of all. Take Francis off the Rockets and Miller off the Cavs. How much of a different in talent is there really? I would say the Rockets have the edge, but its not totally overbearing. Now compare the records. In the much tougher Western Conference the Rockets are a .500 team with Francis (or a couple games over .500 if you look at last season), while the Cavs are about .368 with Miller in the far less superior eastern conference. I would guess that the Cavaliers would probably have the worst record in the NBA if they were in the Western Conference. I don't care how good the rest of his team is, if he was really THAT much of a difference maker where you think he is the answer to all the Rockets problems he should at least be able to elevate his team a little bit, yet they are the second worst team in the NBA. And I think you're putting a little bit too much into statistics. Typically a good player on a bad team puts up better statistics than he would on a good team. Miller would not score as much on the Rockets, and he wouldn't be getting as many assists due to the Rockets style of basketball.

And now, just forget about logic and statistics, and look at this from a high level view. You really think that this starting five would be a .500 team or better?

PG- Miller
SG-Mobley
SF-Williams
PF-Thomas
C-Cato.

Maybe in the East, not in the west. But I do see the Cavs improving their record with Steve Francis on the team.

I don't know why I always get caught up in these backcourt reconstructions posts anyway. The problem with the Rockets is in the frontcourt. If they had one solid low post player these arguments would never even occur, because the Rockets would be a definite playoff team. The Rockets front court quite simply SUCKS!!! I mean its so bad that we are having to start Walt Williams. If the Rockets got Andre Miller right now they would NOT improve one iota. The backcourt is just fine. The only way the Rockets are going to improve is by acquring a good frontcourt player, mo taylor vaslty improving, and/or eddie griffin developing. I don't understand why everyone keeps on making posts that Francis and Mobley are the problems. Does anyone ever stop to think that maybe the Rockets as a whole just don't have as much talent as the teams they are playing right now. And a lot of the problem is also due to injuries. They are still rebuilding after the losing the best player in franchise history. I know its hard to be patient while a team is rebuilding, but just recklessly trading your top players before you're even finished rebuilding is just plain STUPID!

Sorry for the rant. I'm really not that mad.

 

Very good post Manny! This is what it boils down to. Unless the Rocks continue to miss the playoffs or some other unforseen situation, this core will be together for the next umpteen years for exactly those reasons.

Let me mention one flaw in this argument. In the draft you acquire the most talented player available...period. It doesn't matter if you have 8 power forwards already, if the most talented player in the draft happens to be a PF and he's available then you take him. Talent is tradable. So this notion that we'll pick up position players via the draft to fill in the gap for Francis is flawed and would get us in trouble later. So you can't depend on the draft to fill needs...If Shaq is available you take him even if Hakeem is on the team.

Any trades for Francis would have to be <b>100% solid</B>...no risk involved. We know what we've got in Francis and any changes has a huge potential to go south. This core team still has a huge potential to get MUCH BETTER. It's too soon to break it up on a risky trade. After a 1-3 normal seasons without success, only then can we even entertain this scenario.

 

I don't understand how people think Francis' natural position is the two guard. Watch the games. Whenver he moves to the 2 SG spot, he gets far fewer touches and the rest of his game (rebounding, assists, etc) declines. It happens almost every time, without fault (one of the reasons I think the three guard lineup sucks). As Pued said, he has yet to show in any way that he is a SG.

In terms of being a PG, I think Francis' distributing ability is equal or better than anyone's in the league. He is always scanning the floor and generally sees the open people. It IS his natural position. The problem, as DaDakota mentioned, is his leadership ability and decision making. Francis can distribute, but sometimes he'd rather make a dumb play and dribble the ball of his foot, or jump in the air, decide he doesnt want to shoot, and pass to no one in particular. And it's not that he shoots too much. There is no single definition for point guard. His problems would not simply go away by moving him to SG. Besides, Mobley is a much better scorer at will. He could average 30 a game if we let him take enough shots and he learned how to draw the fould a bit more.

Why not trade Francis, then, if he has these problems? If the right deal came along, it isn't a horrible idea from solely a transactionaly standpoint. But not for a veteran PG who passes first, shoots second. You could get much better - at the very least a very good player and a high draft pick. So something like Antonio McDyess (if we needed that position) and Denver's draft pick (to draft a PG, SF, or C), etc. But, more than likely, we would lose out in any deal, as Francis would be the best player involved and deeper issues are involved.

 

That, and if you put Francis in a system like John Lucas', he'd rack up more assists. Don't think it'd help the turnovers, though...

 

Francis is the only reason that us tankers have to root against victories.....without Stevie in the lineup, losing would be automatic...maybe you should watch a game or 2