It's kind of funny how this draft is playing out to be a lot like the 2001 Draft. Before it became obvious Michael Vick sucks as a QB, everybody used to have fun arguing who got the better player from the draft in Vick vs. LaDainian Tomlinson. Now here we are again: the phenominal, athletically gifted, African American scrambling QB vs. the highly touted speed running back. WHAT DO YOU DO??????????? Personally, I would take Reggie Bush. I don't think Carr isn't capable of leading a solid, winning team when surrounded with the proper personnel and coaching.
Since people love throwing this out... You think you know more than a guy who had coached his team to 34 straight victories?
It's a hard choice, but I guess you can't go wrong either way since both Jordan and Olajuwon brought their teams championships I'm still sticking with Bush though...I like the idea of having a Carr/Bush/DD/Andre tandem than Young/DD/Andre.
Reggie Bush was outplayed by White, easily. Who got the ball when they needed big plays? White not Bush. Who wasn't in on 4th and 2 to seal the deal? Bush. Who has yet to prove he can be a workhorse back? Bush. You obviously think that Reggie and Lendale can pick and choose when they want to run. And you really think that Carroll is going to give Bush 30 touches in the Rose Bowl knowing that UT's main goal was to neutralized Bush (and they did)? Please. Carroll played the right cards by going to a different kind of RB in White and it almost paid off. When Leinart was getting roughed up at the end of the 1st half, there was no way UT defense was going to let Reggie rush the ball. They knew that if Leinart wasn't in the flow with the passing game, Reggie would be the next obvious weapon. But I am pretty sure Carroll had some kind of plan where he kenw that if this were to happen, he would give it to Lendale White. Y'all make it out like White was some kind of superstud that came out of nowhere. He led the nation in rushing TDs people! And Bush is a lateral rusher and not an up-and-down rusher like White is...hence, that's why White got the ball (because he had the strength to bowl people over a la Bettis). I'm sorry but Reggie Bush has a ton of risk attached to him. I love to hear this not utilized much argument because it's crap. A heisman trophy winner should not split carries with another RB, and especially should be on the field when the game was on the line. He wasn't. A heisman trophy winner should be utilized like a superstar, Bush isn't. Yet nobody wants to talk about that. Bush is the CFB equivalent of how people overvalue the slam dunk in basketball highlights now. He wows you when he plays, but he has yet to prove he can be the man. Period. It's lacking some substance. Wow. A heisman trophy winner should not split carries with another RB. I wonder what Larry Johnson and Priest Holmes pre-injury would have to say about that. Or Duce/Willie Parker and Bettis have to say about that. Both RBs have different styles/strengths. Carroll probably knew that if he could break down UT's defensive line little by litte by just pushing the ball straight down the middle, it would open up more opportunities for other things to happen. And like I said before, I am pretty sure that Bush wasn't the decision maker when it was 4th and 2 to stand on the sidelines. How can he play when the play isn't drawn up for him? And if you think that all Reggie Bush can do is be an equivalent of a college basketball dunker, look at these stats: 95 receptions 1301 yards receiving 13 TDs That's over the course of three years. So instead of labeling him as the Stromile Swift of CFB, check out the stats. Oh yea here's another one: 0 That's how many fumbles he had over the course of 3 years. Thank you for making my point for me. LenDale White was the one running the ball effectively down my Horns throats Wednesday night, in all the key situations, yet you use Bush's one highlight and say he was better. Sorry, it doesn't fly. Maybe that was the game plan? White and Bush both have almost the same amount of touches (200 vs. 197) and yet Reggie has more than 400 yards on Lendale. White has more TDs but what does that tell you? It tells me that White is used in more redzone situations because he's freaking huge. It's like how the Steelers use one quick RB (Parker) and one big RB (Bettis). Parker gets the yardage but Bettis finishes it up. But does that mean that Bettis is better than Parker or does that mean that Bettis is just a bigger bruiser at RB? White failing on that play is not the determining factor as to who played better that night. White had all the important touches/carries Wednesday night, if that wasn't obvious I don't know what to tell you because it was clear as day. He outcarried Bush 20 to 13, and Bush wasn't on the field for that final play. Again, this is not dictated by either RB. Carroll went with this gameplan from the get go. You cannot even deny this (the # of carries backs it up). He knew that the #1 target UT was aiming at was Bush. So instead of playing into UT's hands, he used his other pretty good RB. You keep mentioning the key moments, how Reggie wasn't on the field, etc etc. Football is a game of specific plays and strategy. How do you expect Reggie to take matters into his own hands if his coach and offensive coordinator decides that a plan of using White to attack is better? Plus, he was the one trusted in the 2nd half when USC scored on 4 straight possessions. He also had two more TD's than Reggie, and is the one trusted by Carroll in goalline situations. Were you on the USC sidelines? What is all this trust? You make it seem as though White was some has-been RB. Most draft websites having going in the 1st round. That ain't not slouch RB. Also, Reggie Bush had three big plays that made up a vast percentage of his total yards. One he screwed up with an ill advised lateral. Another came with 19 seconds left and the Horns trying to play a prevent style defense. The last one was his one highlight for the night. He was held in check otherwise. So what? Yardage is yardage. You're telling me you rather have a RB carry 20 times for 80 yards instead of a RB carrying 10 times with the same amount of yardage? I thought both situations were just as good? Substance is not just YPC, which is always skewed because he didn't have to do the tough short yardage runs that would have brought his average down. White did. Reggie Bush has yet to prove he can carry the work load of an NFL Running back. What load are you talking about? Are you talking about the 3 carries disparity between White and Bush this season? If so, you're not helping your argument that White can 'carry the workload in the NFL'. Substance is partly being able to carry the ball 20-30 times(between the tackles too) over an extended period of time and playing through the pain that will accompany hard nosed running between the tackles. He has not had to do that at SC. He started one game without White splitting carries this year, and while it was a great performance, he has to take on that work load every week in the pros to come close to justifying his projected draft spot. Again, why should Pete Carroll do this? He has two great RBs to work with. A person would jump for joy for that opportunity. You hit the defense with one style of running and hit them with another style of running and they can't stop you. And tell me how many games Reggie missed in his college career and then you can tell me how he can't handle "the pain". Reggie Bush has gamebreaking ability no doubt, but in order to be worth the kind of pick he will be taken with, he can't be a 10-15 carry guy in the NFL. And right now it's a very legitmate question as to whether he can carry the offensive workload for a full season, as he hasn't had to do that in college. Wow. 200 divided by 13 is actually over 15 carries per game. Tack on about 3.2 receptions a game. And, again, carrying this workload...what NFL do you think he's going to? If he's being drafted by the Texans, he has a decent QB and a badass wideout as teammates. He's not going to be Barry Sanders-ing this team. We have a couple of solid weapons. His value will be in the way he can rush effective and thus having the defense change their gameplan. 2) Bush will be a good pro, and both he and Vince will have to make adjustments to succeed at a high level. However, I felt all along after watching this season that Reggie had more to prove(for one he has to still prove he can be a work horse runner), and now he definitely does. After Vince proved he can pass all season, I knew all I needed to know about his ability to be an NFL quarterback. Not to mention the intangibles he possesses. You must be typing this from West Campus or Jester dorms because that is one of the biggest UT-homer piece by far. The only thing Vince proved this year as a QB is that he CAN be an effective QB. The doubt was that he can never play QB and he went out and proved them wrong. But to say that you know of his abilities to be an NFL quarterback? Wow...just wow. Next thing you know, he's already on the level of a in-his-prime McNair or last year's McNabb even before he shakes Paul Tagliabue's hand. 3) Drafting Vince Young does not mean it will take 3-4 years to rebuild. If you make smart personnel decisions(Casserly doesn't have my trust) it can be much quicker to contention. Furthermore, I can argue that drafting Bush could produce the same result especially when you consider the team would have to figure out ways to utilize him and Davis playing together. "Oh it won't take long to rebuild with Young if smart personnel decision are made" You can make the same argument for Bush. Making that argument just means that the success of the organization is dictated by the moves and not the player so essentially your #3 is moot. And as for "finding ways to utilize him and DD", is it really that much of a problem since Davis is only healthy 1/2 to 2/3's of the season? 4) Vince Young to me is a no brainer. Leadership-check. Comeback ability-check. Passer-check. Runner-check. Hard worker-check. Then the two that seal the deal: Putting butts in the seats: bigger check than anyone ever could. Hometown hero: check. You must definitely live in Austin because Houston fans will come if you're team wins and wins a lot. Case in point: Astros and Rockets. With either Reggie or Young, if the team don't win or go to the playoffs year after year, those valuable butts you speak of will stay at home no matter who is playing. Am I being too harsh? Absolutely not. It's just you've been blinded by one (albeit one badass) game and you're ready to send Young to Canton. I'm just making arguments as to why Young ain't the savior everyone's making him out to be. If someone wants to make a hardon case for Reggie, I'll deconstruct that too.
I don't think he "coached" them to all those wins. He recruited the best talent and they were better than everyone. I think he coaches carelessly, just like the ND game going for that sneak at the end was careless.
RM95, I haven't really seen you take a side on this. I know you're a homer, but who would you take VY or Bush? If you were the GM.
since you throwing race around the highly touted running back is african american too . . . does that change the argument any? I don't think so . . but hey you started it Rocket river
So is 200 rushing and 250+ passing plus HOW MANY TDs what sealed VY for me. . was the 4th downs everyone in the country KNEW it was on VY and they still could not stop him. what distresses me about bush is . .. Ray Lewis, Orlacher [chicago], Romo, Bruski, the NFL is filled with some VICIOUS LBs who can FLY!! [this is against VY as well] But. . . Bush will be trying to beat these guys around the end. He won't be going up the middle . . . .. At least Young can throw over them Rocket River
Bush can run up the middle, hes been doing it all year. I think he prefers to bounce it outiside, but wouldn't you? If you had that kind of speed? When I play Madden with a quick RB I usually bounce it outside, but I can still hit the holes and run it up the middle if I have to. Same principle.
There's a way of objectively addressing the race issue without making something out of nothing. There is nothing politcally incorrect involved by saying, "African American QB." It's not disrectful, you're just making much, much more out of it than you should be. I was making a comparison, pointing that out was necessary to my point of comparing this coming draft to the 2001 draft. .....and to answer your pointless question. No, it doesn't change my argument at all.
Maybe you guys should calm down about Vince and look at the boxscore against one of the crappiest defenses I have ever seen in college football, Texas A&M, ranked about 107 out of 117 teams. If you forgot how he played then here is the boxscore. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=253290245 Just trying to remind you that the guy is human.
If Vince Young was a Longhorn from Oregon or Florida then your argument would be valid. But you fail to include in your conclusion the VY grew up only a few miles away from Reliant Stadium, Played football in the Astrodome, and is one of the top elite athletes the city has ever produced. Granted, his being a Longhorn accentuates the debate, but the argument would be no different if he would have produced the same results for the Sonners, Vols, or Hurricanes. That is the point you dont realize. It's more about him being a Houstonian than a Longhorn. if you need help with an anology consider this. What if we had the #1 pick in 2003. Would you want Emeka or Dwight Howard? On a side note you can hire the best coaching staff, draft bush, and pray everyday to the Footbal gods but The Texans aint gonna see .500 for at least 2-3 years.
I still have to go with Bush. I might be a loner on this, but I don't want my qb running the ball (even Young). He has done an exceptional job passing this year and I'm sure once he learns a system, his natural ability to exceed will make an even better player out of him. As for Texas winning and those unimpressed with him. Vince was amazing. USC couldn't stop him. But Texas didn't exactly stop Bush. Sure he picked up a few yards on some plays, but the outside blocking effort be USC was pathetic. White is strong and fast (mostly in a north/south style), but a Reggie Bush he is not. So don't compare Bush to White. That's just not right. I thought that Pete Carroll made poor decisions and ran Bush in only a few predictable plays (that damn outside play which Texas ate up). He was out-coached on offense and his players were out-played on defense. I think having Bush and an offensive minded coach that can help Carr develop what the previous coaches neglected will be the best way to go. I admire Vince's winning attitude and desire to pull out the win, but he can only play QB. Having Bush at RB or at the slot with Davis at RB, opens up more options. IMO This response could be in any of the 9 million Vince Young/Reggie Bush/Dump Carr threads.
Dually noted. I mean if Vince declares and the Texans drafts him, of course they'll be doing the "right thing". Last time we shafted a homegrown athlete he's been lighting it up in Seattle ever since. But.... You can't really use this as an example because it's different situations. One player was a NCAA championship winner and a senior coming out of college with all the credentials in the world. The other is a freak of nature high school prospect that had unlimited potential. One is proven and the other wasn't. Based on talent alone, Howard did and will always win that battle and that's why Howard went first. "But I'm saying if HOUSTON had the pick" . Still would it matter? You go with the better talent (i.e. Howard). But that's the problem. Talent-wise, Vince and Reggie are pretty much on the same level and both are proven college players. But with how the current Texans team is assembled (with Carr/Dre/Davis), I rather go with Bush. People fail to bring up the fact that a QB coming out of college will have, more time than not, a steeper learning curve when compared to other position players. I don't want to see Vince either get: 1. Get drafted, supplant Carr at QB, and have his potential/growth stunted. or 2. Get drafted, stand on the sidelines for a couple of years a la Philip Rivers and have his talent wasted there. And the same thing can be said about throwing Vince out there as a rookie QB. If anyone thinks Reggie is the only one that will have problems with the Ray Lewis', Urlachers' and Freeney's of the NFL, what makes anyone so sure Vince wouldn't be either? Honestly, I see Reggie being, at best, a Marshall Faulk in his prime and I'd be damn satisfied with that. A RB that's fast and has hands to make catching plays--that's the combination the Texans need especially when their Offensive line is par at best. Look at how well DD have done with our run blocking. Now multiply that 2x or even 3 times. You use Reggie Bush for the rushing attack and the short pass attacks. If this works well, the secondary will monitor his movements even more...which then gives Carr a better shot at getting Andre, Jabbar or even Corey the ball down the field.
You cannot be serious. If Reggie Bush can run through the tackles then what the heck was Lendale White doing outcarrying him Wednesday. And what was White doing beating Bush this yearin TD's, since if Reggie can do that then why doesn't he get the goal line carries. The point remains, if Reggie was a complete dominant back, White would be rendered a 3rd down back. Carroll nor any other coach is that stupid. Except the stats/carries show a much different story. They split carries all year. None of the RB's you mentioned split carries at all in college(except Parker sat the bench), and none of them were Heisman winners either. Guys like Ricky, Faulk, Sanders, etc did not split carries. And again, if Bush was capable of running through the tackles, then why didn't he get the 4th and 2 call? Also, having your RB be an asset in the passing game is a luxury, and what good is that if he can't handle getting the type/amount of carries that stud running backs get along with it. It's not clear cut number 1 worthy, sorry. And the point about flash/substance was mainly to point out, even when he gets clearly outplayed: like by White on Wednesday, some still say he had the best game because of his wow factor-in this case his lone touchdown of the game. Willie Parker wasn't going number 1 did he? Reggie Bush might. Parker also isn't being touted as an all time great before carrying the workload of a primary running back. Again, you are making the assumption Carroll is not seeing something in practice in Bush or you are saying Reggie Bush deserves to be in a two headed RB system. If the latter is the case, you cannot justify taking him number 1 overall. It's horrible value. BS. If Reggie Bush was a complete running back capable of carrying the ball 25 times a game while being a pass threat in the backfield, White would have had to wait his turn to get carries until Reggie left. But LenDale routinely took all the short yardage and goal line carries and they had an even split all year. You cannot tell me that if Bush was as good as people were hyping him to be that Carroll would be dumb enough to not have his best talent on the field and touching the ball the vast majority of the time. I agree White is good, but again if Reggie could seriously handle running through the tackles White would be the clear backup. Instead White split carries. And pardon me for expecting a running back potentially going number 1 to be able to handle goal line work and to not have split carries throughout his college career. If Bush was clearly better(and then obviously worthy of top pick status) he would not have split carries at the split he did throughout his USC career. 3 good plays out of the Heisman winner/possible top pick in a national championship game. One negated by being a bonehead, the other occurring with 19 seconds left and the opponents in prevent defense. That leaves his touchdown. The rest of the game he was used in screen type plays/short passes, and tosses to the outside. If he was so worthy of the number 1 pick before how can you explain him being neutralized by Texas. That's right because he's not that good inside the tackles, so he took a backseat to White. Also 279 total yards is a joke because that is adding return yards to his stats. I'm not arguing White can carry the ball the amount of times NFL backs are asked to do so per game. I'm arguing that it's a serious question mark whether Bush can, and that affects his draft value significantly. Reggie Bush did not have to take on the most difficult carries-in between the tackles game after game. He got to run outside because White took most of the plays between the tackles. Also, he has not had nearly the workload NFL running backs are expected to endure game by game. I would hope he could stay healthy with the situation he got to work with at USC. Furthermore, again, if Bush could run that well between the tackles, White would not have split carries with him this year. Carrying the workload of an NFL back means 20-25, maybe even more carries per game. Again, if I'm picking a back number 1, I want a guy who can handle being the primary back on my team without any questions attached. Right now Bush hasn't proven he can do that. It's one thing taking a guy who can do well in limited action in the mid 1st round, it's quite another to take him number 1 overall. Would you take Brian Westbrook number 1 in most NFL drafts? Let's see. He can now read defenses(see how he handled Carroll's blitzes), is mobile like few could ever dream, and had the highest passer efficiency of any D-1 quarterback who started more than half his games this year. Not to mention his 4th quarter comeback proficiency and his completion percentage of higher than 60%. Yes, I think he erased most of his issues about being an effective NFL QB in one season, considering passing was what scouts were scared of about him. On the other hand, Reggie still has to prove he can run inside the tackles on a full time basis, and not have to split carries with another back. I was arguing against someone who said Bush wouldn't set rebuilding back but Vince would. Point is if personnel decisions were the same after drafting both players, I'd rather have Vince because he has proven to me he can carry a team, while Reggie hasn't done that at this stage of his career. Also, you cannot predict injuries year by year, and Davis and Bush are identical style backs, except Reggie is faster but not quite as big. You would have to split one out at WR to get maximum use of the situation. And it's debatable whether they are that good as NFL WR's. They would have to be capable WR2's for that to work. The texans have openly stated part of the appeal of Bush was exciting their fanbase. Vince Young is best ticket draw they could possibly get, and fans would show up to watch him play regardless of team success early on. And I went to UT, but grew up and live in Houston. I watched Vince for 2 full years as a starting QB, and I'm not ready to send him to Canton. But my whole point is that he has fewer questions in my mind than Bush does, and he will touch the ball every play, while Reggie has to prove he can handle a full time NFL running back workload, like the LT's/Portis's/Alexander/James/Barber/Johnson's do game in game out. Thus I prefer to take him number 1 especially with the added bonus of him being a hometown legend. And yes, I'm a UT grad, but my points are not based on Vince good Reggie sucks logic. They are based on the stats. The bottom line is I think Vince has fewer questions in his play than Reggie does to answer at this point and when picking 1st, I want the player with the fewest question marks in their game. I don't think a 15 carry a game RB is worth the number 1 pick in the draft. If he proves he can carry it 20-25 times a game inside the tackles as well as outside, then I'll change my stance accordingly.
Hmmm, did a little research on the top RBs in the NFL today. PLAYER'S NAME • TOTAL RUSHING ATTEMPTS (2006) • ATTEMPTS PER GAME -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shaun Alexander • 370 • 23 Clinton Portis • 352 • 22 Edgerinn James • 360 • 22.5 Ladanian Tomlinson • 339 • 21 [Reggie Bush • 200 • 15] Now their best college seasons in terms of most rushing attempts: PLAYER'S NAME • TOTAL RUSHING ATTEMPTS • YARDS PER CARRY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alexander • 145 • 5 per carry Portis • 220 • 5.5 per carry James • 184 • 6 per carry Tomlinson • 106 • 5.5 per carry Bush • 200 • 8.7 per carry Seems to me that, even though they don't get a ton of carries in college, doesn't mean that they can't do it at the next level. ------------------------------------------ Also, when researching this, I came across a scouting report on Tomlinson. Seems to be an almost identical report we could say for Bush (especially the negatives). POSITIVES…Well-built athlete with an outstanding size/speed package...Flashes quick moves off the snap and is very effective scanning the field when taking a pitch-out...Shows determination and power running between the tackles...Has a compact build and a strong lower frame that allows him to run through arm tackles...Shows strength breaking into the secondary...Takes good angles trying to accelerate past the line...Has good veer and weave running with the ball... Protects the ball securely and displays solid route-running skills with proper hand extension going for the screen passes...Very quick and decisive getting to off-target throws...Stands his ground firmly as a blocker picking up the blitz, facing up to deliver a forceful hand punch. NEGATIVES…Works better when taking the pitch-out, lacking the sudden moves to get off the snap from the proper stance...For all of his power, he seems to prefer to run out of bounds rather than turn upfield to gain extra yardage...not that productive when called upon to take the ball up the middle...Looks to make the “home run” plays too often, developing a reliance on that factor... Better when he gets a rolling start (best with a few yards to build up), but still lacks that explosive burst you’d want in a player with his quickness...Little tight in the hips, preventing him from developing any “shake-&-bake” moves...Willing blocker, but not one who can rock the defender back...Shows strength breaking low tackles, but does not have that quick first step to avoid nor does he use his power to move the pile. ------------------------------------------ I'm not trying to promote Bush, but it just seems some of the negatives that people keep bringing up about him are somewhat overblown when talking about him at the next level.
Anybody else think that if Kubiak is hired as the head coach, he'll favor drafting Vince because he knows just how easy it is to develop a pretty good RB in this league (Terell Davis, Mike Anderson), and he can liken Vince's comeback and raw power ability to that of John Elway...?
