I was referring to MJ and the Bulls. Ok he didn't when he was young but when he matured he became the player. IMO he was half a notch above players like Kobe or Lebron. Even he needed a sidekick and Quitten was enough. Everybody else was pretty much average and overachieved.
1. Kobe 2. LeBron 3. Wade 4. Paul 5. Duncan I really have no clue why you are asking me that question, because I was referring to what was then in 2002 and 2003. No, but Michael Jordan and Isiah Thomas were great players. Isiah, IMO is the 3rd greatest Point guard to ever play behind Magic and Oscar and IMO Michael Jordan is the #1 Greatest player to ever play, but it's not clear cut. Either way, History shows that MOST big men win championship, their have been exceptions but it hasn't happened often.
could be the post game and high field goal percentage. Elite bigs have their way and they are damn efficient.
Your comprehension skills leave much to be desired. That post was mockingly directed toward the overwhelming cacophony on this board crucifying McGrady for his playoff failures (despite his production), yet giving Yao a free-pass for his flaws by warrant of the basest 'we advanced with Yao.' Hence the quip... This is just silly. The point of the argument isn't who had greater responsibility. It's who produced more. Yao had to protect the basket and picked up fouls and thus wasn't able to stay on the floor and produce for the team. The fact that the fouls were picked up by virtue of his responsibility in protecting the basket doesn't somehow impact the comparative end result of his foul trouble during critical stretches. It doesn't matter if it was his fault (the point I'm assuming is your intent by virtue of introducing obligation) - this isn't some character assault. His foul trouble impacted our rotations and what we were trying to do. And if you want to bring up obligations - McGrady spent most of his time guarding Dirk, Howard, or Finley, 3 of Dallas' 4 best players. Thoroughly debunked? You made an absolutely laughable argument in touting Yao's rebounding consistency as indicative of greater overall consistency, and if IIRC, proffered Pau's scoring consistency as a 'consolation prize' - as if scoring is somehow not on the barometer in evaluating franchise players. I don't need to make that acknowledgment - its understood as a factor. You were the one presenting the obligation of guarding Yao as the paramount factor leading to their respective statistical declines. Unless you thought it was the prime causal factor, you wouldn't have pointed it out in making the connection. This would be akin to showing Tracy McGrady's declined stats from last season and mentioning the fact that he didn't wear his leg sleeve as a causal factor, while failing to include that he was also injured. The willful omission of the latter factor is indicative of your belief of the primacy of former in terms of its causal contribution. I honestly didn't want to go there out of fear of unnecessarily piling on the criticisms of Yao, but per your request: <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9NEAvvARppc&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9NEAvvARppc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> This game, and this series, were determined in the 1:30 seen above. During this time frame, the outcome of the game was decided by 3 Utah Jazz offensive rebounds. All 3 of these rebounds, as seen above, were snatched in Yao Ming's vicinity. 2 of the 3 were either directly grabbed or tipped by Carlos Boozer. The other was taken away by Harpring after Boozer effectively boxed Yao out of the picture. To address your query, I don't know where Chuck Hayes was. I only wish he was where Yao Ming was in those 3 costly moments. In case you missed it, the title of this thread is 'Tracy or Yao', the discussion topic of this thread is Tracy vs. Yao, and the context within which my quoted post was directed was the issue of Tracy vs. Yao. Not sure what this is supposed to mean exactly. I was referencing Chinese fans. They are Chinese and they are fans. Thus, they are Chinese fans. I don't know why you would imply that I was a 'fanatic' unless you assumed all people to have discussed religion as such.
I think you got it mixed up. When it matters, Yao has led his team pass the 1st round. When it matters, Mcgrady has never seen the 2nd round even though he has been in the NBA a lot longer than Yao.
Mcgrady is now leading that "far superior team". Ariza = Artest Let's see if he makes it to the 2nd round or even makes it to the playoffs.
Aside from the fact that the word is 'past' not 'pass', what you just said exemplifies the type of basest reasoning I am decrying.
the best teams today have a wing player as their go-to guy. the game has changed my friend. there's a reason we play so well even without yao the past few years.
People are just in love with stats. People don't realize there are tons of ways to impact a basketball game without posting big numbers, those stats are mainly intangibles. You know how people talk about how Kevin Garnett and Shane Battier constantly bring things to the table that the stat sheet doesn't show? Yao brought most of that in the 09 playoffs. Defense, rebounding, presence, etc.... Yao brought all of that. He influenced the game without scoring, his presence alone influenced the game. Sure he may not have been the one posting big numbers, but he was helping his team post big numbers and get the W. It's almost the same way Bill Russell led his team with the Celtics, though Russell wasn't doubled or fronted as much as Yao in the 09 playoffs, but he brought what was necessary in a Big man. In my opinion, Yao set the tone in Game 1 with his massive efficiency. The other games, his presence set the tone along with his rebounding numbers and defensive ability. I blame Sports Center and Fantasy Sports for the lack of credit given to Big men that get lack of credit for what they do. It's another reason why people constantly call Bill Russell overrated when it's far from the truth.
Just give it up dude, it is a lost cause. I don't know why I keep coming back into these discussions when I promise myself I won't.
Probably because Mutombo backs him up, Luther Head usually backed up Tracy McGrady. Once we got a legit backup for T-Mac and a replacement for T-Mac, we ended up winning games and advancing to the 2nd round. Let's face it, Tracy was just not a good leader when he played. Yao is not the best leader, but he's still better than T-Mac at leading a team and Yao certainly influences the game in more ways than T-Mac can ever imagine doing. If Tracy doesn't have the ball, He's worthless out there. He can't do anything else, He can't rebound, defend, set screens, fight through screens, etc.... He can't/won't do any of that. Yao on the other hand, can set the tone with his rebounding, shot blocking, defense, presence, screen setting, etc..... Yao doesn't need the ball to be effective while Tracy does. That's the difference, and if you can get Yao the ball he'll be even more effective. You can do more under Yao, more people have to realize it.
yea you say those for the ROLE PLAYERS. the great players get their stats AND dominate. they put their IMPRINTS THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE GAME. people usually bring up the "intangibles" when they don't have the stats. are you saying lebron lost the series v. the magic b/c dwight howard brought those "intangibles." lebron did EVERYTHING a basketball player can humanly do in that series AND MORE and yet still lost in 6. you think we would win those rings if hakeem didn't average 33 points? 11 boards? 5 dimes? 3-4 blocks? he does all those intangibles AND they show in the stats. that's what makes GREAT PLAYERS. the fact of the matter is yao could never take over with the fronting defenses, and fortunately, our players stepped up. that's why you call a great team. if we didn't have scola in that series, we would have lost to the blazers in 5 games b/c for damn sure hayes/landry wouldn't be making those buckets.
yea the legit backup for tracy goes by an all-star type of player, ron artest, who is both a scorer and defender. and you had another scorer in wafer too. deke AND hayes have ZERO offensive game and when yao went down, that's who we went to war with and they did a great job.
i want to, but these guys make it hard to. there's a reason yao ming has never been mentioned as a top 5 player or an all-world player. there's a reason for that.
Artest a scorer? Since when. I never trusted Artest to score the ball, never have and never will. Can he score? Sure, maybe back in his Pacer days but he's declining at this point and nobody can deny that. His defense? It's still above average, but it's not elite. Von Wafer is a nice scorer...Yes. Too bad his defense is just as every bit as bad as T-Mac's and He's also not a very willing passer either. Von Wafer is a nice player, but he's nothing special compared to Hayes or Deke. Deke and Hayes on the other hand are STILL one of the best defensive bigs in the game. Deke with just his overall defensive ability, Hayes with his post defense. Yeah they weren't the greatest offensive players so what? Are you saying T-Mac could have any two random big men and would still win games? Yeah, who are you kidding. Defense plays as much of a role as offense. But keep coming with the excuses, eventually you'll run out. Yeah and.......The question is who would you rather have, Not who is better. I've stated many times that T-Mac is the better player, but I'll take Yao any day of the week over him.
Actually, the game hasn't changed. Big men are still the cornerstone of franchises. That's why Oden went first in 07. Bargnani and Aldridge went first and second in 06. Bogut in 05. Howard and Okafor were first and second in 04. Even Darko went second in 03.
I love the people throwing around Battier's name along with guys like Bill Russell and Kevin Garnett. Here's the thing. If you put up numbers but your team doesn't win (like KG in Minnesota), a case can be made that you're still a good player. If you don't put up numbers but your team does win (like Robert Horry, Rick Fox, etc), again, a case can be made that you're still a good player. But if you don't put up numbers and your team doesn't win, well, I'll let you finish that sentence. And before you say "wait a minute, what are you talking about, Battier's won a lot", tell me, how much more has he won than McGrady? I don't think too many people would object if you said Tmac hasn't really won anything. Certainly not too many people around these parts.
1) he still at least put up 15+ points FAIRLY consistently (not one of the best scorers, but CLEARLY 10x better than deke or hayes) 2) defensively, he's no longer the defensive player he once was, but he's still very good team-wise. we gotta give him credit for that. the problem w/ deke and hayes is that you're always playing 4-on-5 on offense. ALWAYS. and you add onto that with rafer and shane, that's like 3-on-5 a lot of the time. deke and hayes, also, never play big minutes for that very reason. and yes, taking who over who is an opinion. but the prime tracy was a top 3-4 player by 99% whoever watched basketball, including GMs/coaches. i'm sure they would choose tracy. the bad tracy as a teammate was only triggered by last year's debacle, and tracy wasn't a good player last year. in fact, he was horrible.
Glutton for punishment from the appropriately insigniad "Yao, his God" club of ignorance, appropriated by people who likely never truly studied the game pre-Colin Pine. It's ok, cabb, I'm pretty gluttonous for it, too. They're Lucy and keep snatching that football of ignorance and blind fandom away just before we can boot it out of their hands. DRAT!
KG puts up 20 and 10. bill russell puts up 14 and 20. i don't know what they're talking about when battier is linked with those 2.
