I agree that Petersen/Posey are about even and I didn't mean to insinuate that one was better than the other (Petersen is better on O, Posey is better on D and the boards). My point was, trades are so rare because teams don't tend to trade for something they don't need. Now, if Posey does not resign, then I suspect that the Rockets would love to have MoPete. However, all indications are, the Rockets want to resign Posey and I am sure Posey wants to stay here. If so, then we have no need for MoPete and thus, Toronto offering him in a trade package would is really not much of an insentive to us. Cato and Davis both have bad contracts. That is agreed. However, I am looking at it from a standpoint of, is Davis enough of an upgrade over EG over the next 3 years to offset the loss of your best backup big man (because essentially, this trade would boil down to EG/Cato for Davis since Peterson is not really and upgrade over Posey). I might be in the minority, but I am not one that wants to dump bad contracts just for the sake of dumping them, especially, if it weakens an area of our team.
But then what do you do with Mobley?? I would rather have Mobley over Peterson has my starting SG. Peterson just isn't an upgrade IMO over Posey or Mobley.
I agree about taking the Detroit stuff with a grain of salt...but other than that, if you look at Bosh vs. Griffin...in terms of measurables, attitude, questions, body, athleticism, etc...it all comes out Bosh. Have you seen him play, or on film? He's simply a much, much better athlete than Griffin is/was...It's like comparing Garnett and Rahim...I'm not saying that Bosh is gonna be a Garnett player...but he's that type of athlete...Of course, you can sort of say the same for Stromile Swift, except like Garnett and unlike Swift BOsh is basically a 7 footer with really long arms. And it's not like the attitide questions weren't legit reasons for Eddie to slide..but I disagree about them only being about anger...there was that, but there was also the reports that he played without passion; he'd just blow up every year or so and punch a teammate. But either way, Bosh doesn't have the questions, while haviong at least the same physical potential...so i don't see how anyone can argue that he's picked behind griffin.
Macbeth, what about my proposal? Cat,Taylor and Griffin for Davis,Peterson and the # 4. I think tha would satisfy both teams. Toronto wants to make noise now but are short on scorers and we know we will make noise next yr, but need to get tougher and more team oriented. Mo Pete is insurance in case Posey leaves, Davis will groom the spot for Bosh. Cat and taylor could take the load of Carter and griffn gives them a player to be patient with.
How hard can it be to understand - you just keep ignoring Davis' AGE. Davis gets even more money than Cato (way more) and is MUCH OLDER. You keep talking about Davis as if it was certain that he can even keep up his performance from last year (40.7 fg %). Not even that is possible.
Lee, Toronto would be nuts to do that trade. Sometimes you have to break it down and look at like this: Griffin < Davis Mobley > Petersen (this could be null and void if VC comes back healthy since Toronto would not be in the market for a starting SG) Taylor < #4 pick (not even close) Toronto would be giving up alot more than they are receiving.
You keep mentioning "2 starters"...2 starters on one of the worst teams in the league. It doesn't mean anything that they started. Just because Mo Taylor starts, it doesn't make him any better than he is.
As good as Davis is, his contract is ridiculous. To get rid of that contract, Raptors will pay a price. As bad as Moochie is, your second round pick may turn out to be worse (just how many 2nd round picks play 5 minutes a game in the first two years). EG has potential in their eyes and is yong, and Taylor may be more usable than a #4 pick. BB wise, the trade is fair, and money is even.
codell: I COMPLETELY disagree. Griffin < Davis is just totally wrong considering age and contract situation.
Okay, here's my take on that: If I'm the Toronto GM, I don't do it...but Glen Grunwald might. Let me explain: In my opinion, you win with 2 stars, otherwise you have to have a Hakeem like year to carry a team, and get lucky to boot. As such, the first thing I'm doing if I'm a GM with 1 young star, like Toronto, is trying to find a way to get a 2nd star. It's pretty hard to do, normally, as that 1 star keeps you out of the top picks, but isn't good enough to get you the ring by himslef. Jordan, Robinosm, etc. all had to have year off injuries to get that kind of help..and the Raptors got that last year. Now if the draft goes as it should, and they get "Melo, it's a walkaway...but they drop ( as always) to 4th...and the question is, is the 4th pick a sure fire star? It's starting to look like he is, but it's not as sure of a thing as Melo...so it's a bit of a gamble. In my book, you don't even think about it, you take the chance on a 2nd star...cause without it you might as well go home anyways. So I keep Bosh, and the other stuff...ie whattya do at center...do you keep Davis...etc. is all secondary to building around Carter and Bosh. But I'm not sure that Grunwald thinks that way. He might be more of a " Plug two holes with good players rather than maybe get one great player" kind of guy. Add to that the fact that he's being watched very closely right now, and he might go for something like what you're suggesting. It gives you somwthing of a chance at a star in Griffin, and a good but not star quality player in Cat...make it Cato instead of taylor ( as if they trade Davis thay have 0 centers, but 4 power forward with Griffin, Bradley, Williams, and now Taylor..ie there's no incentive at all to get Taylor. If it's Cato instead of Taylor, it might interest Grunwald..it;s certainly better than some of the rumoured offers ( Spreewell and the 9th pick, etc.) but also less value than others ( Sheed, Walker, Nash and LaFrentz, etc..) So I don't do it at all...but GG would be an easier sell than me, IMO.
For the sake of the discussion, I was giving Davis the edge over Griff just based on production/need. I was trying to be objective and was really just throwing a bone out there. I am already on the record in this thread as being on the "no Griffin for Davis trade" for the same reasons that you just mentioned.
2 starters on one of the worst teams in the league last year...the most injured year in NBA history...but they were also starters on the team the 2 or 3 years before that...you know, the 3 years they made the playoffs...when we were doing what, exactly?
EG<Davis? questionable considering the age. Mobley>Petersen. No question Taylor<#4 pick? #4 pick could be nothing. The #2 and #3 picks from last year draft, how did they fare? It is ALWAYS the case that you overestimate how good a high pick can be even before he plays a single NBA game. Now, you may say Taylor's contract is bad, but the most ridiculous contract involved belongs to Davis. Frankly, I wouldn't be happy to make this trade.
Agreed..although, I think that Griff's possible upside and Davis's current production wash out...but that's why I like this trade( the one I suggested)..each team gets what it needs. We have plenty of youth, we need toughness, inside presence, and something we can count on...Toronto has plenty of dependable vets, they need youth to build around Bosh and Carter, IMO...
