Toronto Star: Griffin For Antonio Davis?

So you don't think that the akers team that was swept by the 99 spurs was more talented than the ones in the championship yrs? Eleden Campbell,Eddie Jones and NVE, if given a yr or 2 and phil Jackson coaching could have one titles and probably be still winning titles. On a individual basis, those guys were much better than the players that replaced them, but in sports , its something called addition by subtraction. In layman terms its like getting rid of better individual talent for better team talent. The trade that is proposed is what its about. Mobley is a better individual talent than Morris and despite age Davis and Taylor are about equal, but for what this team needs, they're a better fit. Bosh for Griffin is trading "potential" for "potential" , but it loks like Bosh work ethic will make him a better player than Griffin.

 

MacBeth- I'm slow today, I edited my reply above, clarified some things.

C'mon, Griffin behind Battier was a fluke. Griffin SLIPPED on draft day, there were rumors within a week before the draft of him going #1.

I don't doubt Bosh's athleticism, but for that matter, isn't he coming off behind Darko? (That's all for the draft stuff from me.)

I won't even get into the whole Mo is soft thing...he's a pathetic rebounder, but I don't see how he gets this "soft" wrap. Did he not completely punk out Jamal Magloire when we played the Hornets and Magloire tried to get in his face? Please do not put in my mouth that I'm saying he's tougher than Antonio Davis.

Re: Mobley/Peterson vs. Taylor/Davis (we won't get into Griffin/Davis again). The difference is, Mobley is 28 with several exceptional years left and on a good contract. I'd expect Peterson to ask (and probably rightfully so based on others) for a much bigger contract than Mobley. Davis is 35, is declining, and is on a terrible contract. Nevermind the gap of ages between Mobley and Peterson is much smaller than Davis/Taylor. IF Davis was 28, and was doing what he did the past few years, I wouldn't have near as many qualms about trading Griffin for him.

Again, this just sounds like Toronto Sports Writer flinging mud against a wall.

 

You were the one pointing out that Griffin had a lower fg % than Bosh and that that is one of the main reasons why you think Bosh is better. Now stick to it...Davis has basically decreased his FG % ever since he came into the league and is now at a staggering .407...something I pointed out several times in this thread, but you have ignored it...so what if he had 14 ppg, 8.2 rpg - even Griffin could have averaged 14 pts if you had let him shoot as many shots as Davis did with that percentage.

Regarding A), even if Griff's development is not happening, it still does not make sense to take on a horrible contract just because of that. Regarding B), compliment returned with pleasure . And if you look at the majority of responses in this thread, you will see that more seem to agree with what you perceive as one-sided.

 

MacBeth,

You have to take into consideration the state of Toronto's team. AD was taking 12 shots a game there. Heck, Yao didnt even average 10 a game here, so I would highly doubt that AD would get enough touches to come close to what he averaged last year. Also, per min, EG was a better rebounder than AD was last year, not to mention, a better shot blocker.

In the end, I don't think that AD is any more productive than EG is (except on D) and taking his age and contract into consideration, as well as EG's age and contract (and potential upside), I just don't think you can give up on EG and only get a player like AD in return.

 

When looking at young players in general, the1st thing to look at is work ethic. In high school and college, most times those guys are the biggest ,strongest players on te court, but a guy with great work ethic is one who improves every yr. Classic example, Kenyon Martin. The consensus was that he was a senior and had tapped his potential, but if you look at Martin the frshman to martin the senior, you could see he had the work ethic to get better and better. Another example, Jefferson. Many people will look at the alley oops from kid and vice versa, but no one saw him working on his jumper constantly in the summer leagues. For the most part, all these young players have a degree of athelticism that the avg Joe doesn't have. Some have freakish atheleticism like Amare,Garnett,Francis,Wallace,McGrady, and the Kobe's of the world and others are not as atheletic but are still pretty good in that compartment like Duncan,Griffin, and so on. What seperates the 2 is combining that atheleticism with s strong work ethic. Its more than just trading player for player when evaluating Bosh vs Griffin. in relative terms, its like asking why isn't Wallace one of the top 2 or 3 pf's in the entire league? I'm not sure Wallace wants to be the best in the league, whereas Garnett,O'Neal, Dunacn and guys like that do.

By all reports, thats the way Bosh is. He works hard, loves and is enamored with basketball and will do whatever it takes to be very ,very good. Griifin is in the mold of Taylor. Taylor is another one of those guys who if he was really serious about basketball during the off season, he could be a dominant prototype 4 in this league, but he's not consummed about being the best he can be. He's happy wih his contract and his many and production. Its no reason in the world to Taylor not to be a 18pt 10 reb type of post player, but he's not. It was always said that if David Robinson had Barkley's attitude, he would be unstoppable. If Taylor or Griffin had Mobley or Francis work ethic, we wouldn't be trying to fing a solution for our probelm at the 4.

 

Don't forget that they also had to pick up Phil Jackson to get over the hump and get that first piece of hardware.

 

Davis is old, expensive and on the downward slope towards the final year of his good playing days. He would be a costly short term fix! We need someone that can last,and sustain at least 5 years of top notch playing and one that can be very effective without the ball! The name that comes to mind is Elton Brand.

 

Well, as much as I hate it, I have to agree with Yetti on this one .

 

yes, ford.
no, bosh.

 

Antonio Davis' fg % has been sucky for a PF for years.

That's the whole point - you've gotta give to get - but if what you get is something that you wouldn't even want if you gave nothing - then you have just suggested a bad trade. I don't get this assumption that the Rockets' GM should just line up to make Toronto better, cheaper, and younger.

 

MacBeth,

Is Peterson an upgrade over Posey? If not (and I am assuming you agree), then I don't see him as a desirable commodity to the Rockets and thus, would not want to give up my best low post defender/rebounder for someone that doesn't improve my team.

 

Better, yes, considering all factors such as age, contract situation, upside, health.

What are the most important things we want from our other big men outside of Yao? Probably that they don't brick too many shots, that they play good defense, rebound well and block a lot of shots, and that they don't turn the ball over too much.

FG %: Cato/Griffin win
Reb per min.: Cato/Griffin win
Blocks: Cato/Griffin win
CONTRACTS: Cato/Griffin win (once you have Davis' contract, you will always be stuck with it - Cato might even be movable if he keeps up last year's play or improves a little bit)
Age: Davis' combination of age and contract is the killer.

 

If Raptors propose AD+#4 pick+2nd round pick for EG+Moochie+Taylor, I will give it a thought. They got to pick up some garbage contracts from Rox.

 

I don't know, macbeth, I don't want to turn this into a research project about Eddie Griffin's athleticism.

If I wanted, I'm sure I could dig up multiple articles discussing his speed, leaping ability, athleticism etc, enough to form a "consensus" if need be.

What I think we can agree on is that Eddie did not slip in the draft because people thought he couldn't jump high enough. It was because people questioned his attitude. (ironically, people thought he had anger management problems, while we beat on him for being soft, he must be passive agressive or something)

As for the Darko comparison, I'm not sure how much weight that deserves. One of the few knocks on Darko is, in fact his athleticism (his vertical is reputed to be somewhere in the low 20's, which isn't a lot)

While I believe what you say that certain people are raving about Bosh, I think that's the kind of stuff you always hear when draft hype/pollyanna machine kicks in around this timie of year.

Remember back in 2001? Many reports and rumors had DeSaganna Diop as being the dark-horse best player in the draft, and had him supposedly dominating Kwame Brown, Chandler, Curry, etc. in private workouts. DeSaganna Diop! Similar things were said about Rodney White, he was supposedly the man the Rockets were really after as he was the real best player in the draft.

On draft day, everybody picks who they want and becomes a winner, then reality sets in.

 

codell- IMO, if you get Peterson, you play him at SG. I think the reason the Rockets took Collier over Peterson a few years ago were for

MacBeth- In the right circumstances, I'd consider making that deal. I'd prefer it be Taylor instead of Cato, because I think Cato can actually be moved on his own merit right now- he's legit center size, and performed exceptionally well in limited (for due reason) minutes. I think Mo, due to injury, performance, and the fact that he's a PF would be tougher to move. I wouldn't be opposed to moving Cato.

In your deal, I'd let Peterson take over the SG slot. The right circumstances would depend on what you could get for Mobley. Peterson would take over at SG, but if you can get a young PF for Mobley, a Fizer or Swift type, I'd go for it.

The key to your deal is Peterson. There's a big difference in getting a young talent as part of the deal and not. In general, you don't trade big for small.