Top Chinese diplomat tells US to 'shut up' on arms spending

I'm intrigued. Let me ask another scenarios.

What is the purpose of Japan to maintain such a huge ass defense budget? I mean, after all, they've only been invaded twice throughout history, once way back in the 13th century by the Mongolians and once during WWII where the Soviets took some islands to the north and the Americans took some to the south, many of which weren't even Japanese to start with.

So why this huge defense budget? Pretty funny huh? It's not like they are like China which has been invaded (mostly unsuccessfully) all of several thousand times throughout history. Boggles the mind.

Oh of course, I'm expecting your typical American posters to come in any time now with this "the threat from China" theory.

 

You know, you are a funny funny little clown.

Way back in the 40's, Truman dropped the two bombs because he thought the invasion involving some one million of American GI's and marines would be too costly (of course, warn the Soviets to stay the heck out of Japan as well).

So China has like what, 8 of those amphibious ships? Great. Assuming all of them makes it to shore (which never happens), China just deployed all of 2000 troops and 80 tanks. Such a sizable force. Man, we are talking 1/5th of a division. It's pretty clear that they intend to use it.

And them 956 Sovremennys, all three of them, those won't be target practise for shore based defense/aviation at all. Oh and of course, China has four more being built with Russia. So they'll send the first three right away and the next four in a couple of years. A two wave invasion force. Damn them Chicoms are bad.

Those Kilos are pretty decent and China has about 4 - 8 of them depends on who you ask. But unlike the typical American bullsh1t spin, the first 4 boats ARE NOT armed with Klub missiles. Rather ironic no?

The 052's have not even yet been built (ie. armed) and the 051c's are undergoing sea trials. Of course, once those are operational, the Chinese mixed fleet will have a 10% chance to intercept an incoming missile, assuming only one is fired at it. Whoopa-dee-doopa-dee-doo. I think it's pretty funny that China is banking on an invasion of Japan (or anywhere else for that matter) based on those.

Oh of course, who could forget coastal based aviation. Anybody bother checking the combat radius of them Sukhois and the distance to Japan from the closest Chinese shore? No? Well, I guess they could always kamikaze.

I'm wondering how long it will be before an American... ANY American can construct an argument that can't be torn to shreads by five year olds in five seconds.

 

SM, a couple of US carrier battle groups would chew them up, and spit them out. The scenario is rediculous, with all due respect. China is indeed building an invasion force, but it's target, should the PRC decide it's in their interest, is Taiwan, not Japan. They are doing their planning with the idea that eventually America will decide Taiwan isn't worth fighting for. One of the reasons for the buildup is to make the price of defending Taiwan so steep for the US that we will blow it off, in my opinion.

Sanity, one would hope, will prevail, and China won't attempt such a thing. They shouldn't count on the US standing back in such a situation. That would be a serious roll of the dice, with countless lives at stake. Let's hope we never see such a scenario come to pass.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

Since this kind of switched to Mainland-Taiwan topic, I'd like to chime in as well.

First of all, to clear my position, I do NOT want to see a seperated/independant Taiwan; but I strongly object ANY war between the two, because to me, they are all Chinese.

Second, it's very regrettable the relationship between Mainland and Taiwan was a lot worse than 20 years ago. I guess, both leaders from CCP and KMT would like to take some actions back if they could.

The early economic development of China in 80's, started with Deng's new policy switch; however, Mainland received tremendous kickoff help from Hong Kong and Taiwan, loans from Japan, and oversea ethnic Chinese from all other South-East Asian countries. Without those initiation, China probably would be like Russia, waiting for Western promises to be realized, before the oil price surge. Yes, those entrepreneurs made huge profits, but they delivered much needed funds and capitalism ideas, to jump start the ecomie. I still remember the huge donation from both Hong Kong and Taiwan, during those floods in the 80's, and the student demonstration in 89'; 6.4. was one of the turning point, donation from oversea Chinese for nature catastrophe reduced dramatically afterwards.

Mainland and Taiwan were in agreement NOT to be in argument about who belongs whom, but rather to do something to further economic ties and connect people more. KMT selected Lee as their leader. Lee was a communist, then he served in Japanese army, and then became a strong figure in KMT. He's a political genius, I must say. During his terms, he promoted the idea of "Taiwan is Taiwanese's Taiwan", sharpened the conflict between so-called "Out-provincer" and "Original volks". Before he completed his term, he literally divided KMT, and drove Song out and formed another party. Chen barely won the election with about 1/3 votes, while basically another 2 KMT candidates took another 1/3. Both Kiang and CCP misjudged Lee, and it was total failure. Of course, the missle firing was a dumb idea as well, although those were empty missles without any warhead. Instead of a warning, it became a rally point for election.

Since then, the relationship between Taiwan and Mainland has been downhill, despite closer economic ties. Currently, there are extremists on both sides to be used by politicians. In Mainland, there are youth claiming that people in Taiwan should just bend over, we are taking it no matter how, even with force. There are also people in Taiwan, refuse to admit any tie with Mainland, call all Mainland Chinese pigs or dogs, that no matter how they are going to be independant, and US will beat the crap out of China, if China dares to use force. I still think the majority is hoping a stablized situation, where we keep the current status quo, and hoping in the future, some sort of agreement for re-unification could be achieved.

Now, Lee formed his own party, and openly admitted as a proud and happy Japanese, and vowed to realize Taiwan independance with all might. Lots of fuel were added into fire, by speeches from different political figures in Japan and US. It's not in the best interest of Japan and US, to see a unified China, and I don't blame them. Self-interest is almost the first priority. But it's rather frustrating for a Chinese, to see countries using lip services as bargaining chips. Whenever US announces that US supports the one China policy, Chinese will buy some Boeing. Some countries in Africa jump between two sides, get financial supports. CCP is learning their lessons now, stays quiet in the current "remove Chen" petition in Taiwan.

There are lots of common interest for both sides, and there are so much ties, and technically speaking, it is indeed still in a civil war status. I really want to see a re-unification. Both sides can be a lot safer, and prosper at the same time. Earlier, the major beef was about non-democratic central government, but now, things are more complicated with all the political forces with different agendas.

There was proposals from Mainland, that Taiwan can be a high self-ruled district, with its own army and government, and they can send someone to Beijing to be the No. 2 guys, while Beijing wouldn't send anyone to Taiwan. Just a symbolic union. Name of the country, national flag and anthem, can all be discussed. From CCP POV, they think it's very generous. But from KMT, they don't really trust their counterpart. I say CCP should go further, open election for everyone, KMT, Chen's party, or CCP, let the people choose. To me, it doesn't matter it's called PRC, ROC, or just China. I also think the original ROC national anthem is better than the current PRC one. Both Kiang considered themselves Chinese, if CCP proposed such things, probably there would have been an agreement. Of course, it's all different now with Chen.

The "not giving up force" stance, is, after all, just a stance. War will throw both sides back decades. Nobody wants it. It's a warning to keep the status quo, than a reality. It's trivia, if CCP gives up that stance, Chen and Lee will push very far; if they don't, the world consider them aggressive and threatening a democratic Taiwan. It is difficult, especially, US and Japan both have a stake in it. US will encourage indepence talk a little bit, if both sides are too close; and warn Chen to cool off, if he's moving too fast. As for Japan, that's a full-force encouragement of independance. It's solely based on own interests.

I have relatives and friends in Taiwan, and of course more in Mainland. I do not want to see a war. It willl pains me greatly to see they finally seperate, but I still won't want any harm on fellow Chinese, be it Mainland or Taiwan. Hopefully, leaders on both sides can be more flexible and smart, international community can be more supportive of a peaceful unification of one people.

 

Nice post. I'm all for maintaining the status quo, with relations slowly improving between Taiwan and the Mainland. If one looks at the European Union, at how those ancient enemies have come together for mutual benefit, I think you could see an eventual solution to the problem. I certainly hope so.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

Listening to SM, NY and Otteman talk about military is like listening to donkies sing opera. Do they really believe that **** that comes out of their mouths?

I am not paronoid when I say certain group of people always try to demonize China. We have seen a few of them in this thread. That I think IS established.

 

Hey, if you're going to start calling us donkey's, can we bring back the dog photo?

 

China and Taiwan would reunite peacefully much sooner if US and Japan could stay out of it. But of course US and Japan don't want to see that happen.

For the same reason, US and Japan don't want the two Koreans reunite, because that whould mean: 1) US withdraw troops from Korea and loss its influense and 2) Koreans can focus on their conflicts with Japanese.

I know quite a few Korean friends. On one hand, they need the protection of american military force, but on the othe hand, they are frustrated with how Bush has handeled the situation and wasted all the progress made during Clinton's time.

 

Right, because if the U.S. stayed out, China would just invade Taiwan and they'd be reunited!

U.S. is bad for wanting a democratic state not to be swallowed up by a totalitarian one!

 

Can you read? I didn't say you sing opera nor donkey talk about military.

The way you guys decribe an invasion of Japan by China is just lunatic. It is funnier than donkies singing opera.

Do you really believe that **** coming out of your mouths?

 

The status quo is something Chinese on both sides of the Strait have to live with, for the time being, because of a number of issues -- be it practical or political/ideological -- hindering the unification. The status quo, however, is not the goal, but merely a temporary solution. If you are for the status quo, you are essentially for the division of China, despite your rhetorical denial. You fool nobody here.

 

Do you really disbelieve the **** you're trying to put in our mouths?

And I do think we should bring back the dog photo - it's the same as your donkies comment, except donkies have bigger shlongs.

 

umm...how can you totally blame Bush when it's Kim who resumed uranium enrichment?

Older generation Koreans recognize American defense while the younger has forgotten the Korean War. It's not cut and dried. Heck, even the South Korean government isn't enthusiastic over reunification....

 

Only c*m handy in p*rn movies.

 

No, because if the U.S. stayed out, Taiwan wouldn't be hijacked by guys like Lee and Chen, and Taiwanese wouldn't be forced to pay for overpriced and outdated american arms, and China wouldn't have to worry about Taiwan being controled by a foreign force and wouldn't need to take the hardline approach.

 

I don't think there would be the case. Remember, HongKong was supposed to be returned after 99 years, and Chinese didn't even talk about it before they felt they were ready. Lots of people suggested Mao to take that back, fully honoring the agreement, but Mao said it's good to leave a window open. Finally, in 1997, after 150 years, Hong Kong is returned to China. There was transition pain, conflicts or problems, but can anyone seriously say that Hong Kong was swallowed by totalitarian one. In fact, lots of my Hong Kong friends in Canada returned to Hong Kong in the past few years, who originally "fleed" out of worry.

In the early 50's, according to concensus, it was the best time to take Taiwan, after the first failed attempt, due to underestimation. Then, Korean War broken out. China never seriously tried to take Taiwan afterwards. There was never large offensive mission afterwards. In the beginning, Taiwan with more powerful weaponies, fired Mainland from Jing Meng, a small island very close to Mainland, and Mainland fired back. Because it's so close to Mainland, lots of CCP members suggested to take that first, Mao refused. For the same reason, lots of KMT members suggested to give up the small island, and Kiang refused. For the same reason, as long as the firing continues, the war continues, it's still a civil war between Chinese. Jing Meng is a close tie between two sides, in a strange way.

What exact history event supports your suggestion, that China would invade Taiwan right away, if US stays out of it?

 

I just want my weekly fix of 8 O'Clock Gang on Sunday, if you know what I mean.

 

Clinton made a deal with Kim and things were going to the right direction. Bush took over, started calling Kim evil (ok, he is but that is not how you deal with him when a deal is already made), withheld aids for months when Kim already suspended uranium enrichment. What do you expect Kim to do? Even an average person may tear up the contract when the other side shows no interest of hornoring it.

Kim is a very bad bad guy, but the neoconservatives have to take partial responsilities for what happened to Korea after 2000.

To my knowledge, many south koreans are still interested in reunification, at least those I know. There were visits at the civilian level during Clinton's time. Of course, now things are a lot harder. Isn't that what the neoconservatives want?

 

The talk started in Clinton's time. It wasn't all warm and fuzzy, but all parties sat down to talk. Kim EVEN asked Albright for her email address. Bush came to office, before there was even a talk about whether the talk should continue, bang, he put N.K. into Axis of Evil. What would you expect Kim to do?

 

He is a clown filled with hatred. There is no point to REASON with him.

Read the part he decribed how China can send troops over sea and land in Japan and capiture Japanese land. He is a clown. Don't overrate him by REASONING with him. He is not worth it.