I think you can rank any of the top 4 in any order because they're so different. Bill Russell comes in 5th with Moses I'll go with: Wilt Kareem Dream/Shaq Russell/Moses Shaq has more longevity than Hakeem but Dream in his prime is arguably the greatest 2 way player of all time. He's defensively miles ahead of O'neal. I put them tied because shaq has the rings and longetivity as a fact, but Hakeem spent a career with significantly less talent surrounding him. Put a hall of famer next to him between 90 and 93 and he probably takes all of those rings from Jordan. If sampson doesn't go down he may have had a couple rings earlier as well.
better career, doesn't necessarily make him a better player. playing with much better players helped him get a lot of deep playoff runs hakeem couldn't get. it certainly can't be a coincidence that hakeem made the finals in his second year with shaq-level teammates, then got shaq-level teammates (being generous) again 8 years later and made the finals again. presumably he didn't forget how to play in the middle 7 years. and yet their playoff points and efficiencies are remarkably similar. throw a rebound on for shaq and a block on for hakeem and they're stats are basically the same. not really. he just entered at 20 instead of 22. hakeem's 14th and 15th seasons were 16/9.8/2 and 19/9.6/2.5. shaq's were 20/9.2/1.3 and 17/7.4/1.4. flip the seasons around for shaq and they're basically the same as hakeem's. this year at 36 shaq put up 18/8. when hakeem was 36, he was putting up that 19/9.6 season above. aside from people leaving college earlier like people were starting to do, shaq hasn't extended his dominance any longer. considering his huge size/strength advantage that doesn't go away with age, i actually always figured he would have the much better later years, but so far he really hasn't. now hakeem did fall off hard starting at 37, and shaq probably won't fall by that much, but this argument isn't really about hakeem and shaq at 37.
For those of you who said Wilt is the #1. Do any of you ever think about the playoffs? First off, Wilt was a choker come playoff time. There's a reason why Russell ended up dominated him most of the time. If any of you remember in 1962 Game 7. Russell had 30 points and 40 rebounds against Wilt and that's probably the most underrated Game 7 domination this league has ever seen. Wilt would also miss crucial free throws as well. If regular season meant everything, Wilt would be ahead of Jordan.
Who would you guys draft right now to build your franchise? Out of all those guys, I wouldnt even hesitate and draft Dream, Kareem would be a close 2nd. I never got the chance to watch Wilt play, but I wont let his stats sway my decision. I know for a fact he wont be able to duplicate those kinds of stats now.
Well what else are we going to judge "better player" than other than what they accomplished over the course of their their career? I also wouldn't exaggerate the quality of "SHaq level teammates" - other than Kobe, guys like Rick Fox, Brian Shaw, Devean George, Tyron Lue, Ron Harper, are pretty average to below average players.
Kobe is/was arguably one of the best players in the league and Penny Hardaway was a stud when Shaq was playing with him. Shaq also had a double-double guy in Horace Grant on the front line with him with the Magic. The argument against Shaq when comparing him to a Hakeem is that he was not the defensive player Hakeem was. A peak-level Hakeem is nearly on the same level as a peak-level Shaq, but Shaq was nowhere on the radar in terms of defense when compared to Hakeem. Shaq actually could've been so much more dominant than he was if he could only hit free throws. I don't think during the modern era there was a more unstoppable force on offense in the NBA - Jordan may be the only one. Seriously, if you watch some of Shaq's games early in his career when he was in shape, it was like crossing the Hulk with a doberman - fast, aggressive, quick, insanely strong - nobody wanted to get in the guy's way. It was damn-near illegal what he could do. But... Hakeem was still the better all-around center.
It WAS illegal what he could do. I often watched Shaq play, and his signature "power move" was an offensive foul. Of course he dominated. The NBA decided they needed a super star to help replace Jordan, so they allowed a huge athletic man to put his shoulder into a defender, push him out of the way, and dunk. Hakeem scored within the rules of the game using both power and finesse. A lot of people only look at Hakeem's prime playing days as well, and forget the fact that he was a fast, physical freak of nature when he was younger. Also, could you imagine the championships the Rockets could have won if they had a Kobe, prime Penny, or D-Wade alongside Hakeem in his prime? Heck, when they had Sampson before his knees gave out, they had the beginning of a dynasty. He also would have more championships if the Rockets hadn't had the drug scandals in the 80s.
How quickly people to seem to forget that Shaq 1) Could not guard pick and roll 2) Could not make free throws Both of these were exploited by other teams. His inability to make free throws forced Kobe Bryant to close a number of games for the Lakers. It also cost the Suns the series against the Spurs. Teams have run circles around Shaq with pick and roll plays because Shaq completely refuses to guard it. If you are using rings as the criteria, it does not work with me. Pair up Kobe Bryant with Hakeem and you would be looking at MORE than just 3 championships. Put Shaq on the 93-94 Rockets team in place of Hakeem and you would be kidding yourselves if you think he could carry them all the way. Knicks would send him to the free throw line 30 times a game. If you are using "most dominant low post player" hype as the reason, well, just look at the numbers posted by Hakeem and Shaq. Slightly better numbers against more inferior competition makes him better? This despite the fact which cant be argued that Hakeem was a much better defensive player?? Michael Jordan and Alonzo Mounring's choice = Hakeem Olajuwon. Why did they pick him? Because of his all around game and ability to play at both ends of the court. Why would I pick him? Because, besides the above mentioned reason, other than Michael Jordan at the guard spot, Hakeem is the only player I have seen who did not have a significant weakness you could exploit. PS. Ostertag was brought up in an earlier post. By the time Hakeem was matched up against Ostertag in the playoffs, he had been thru knee surgeries. Hakeem had lost his mobility by then. He rarely went to his spin move to the basket. Jazz knew this and they played him for his jump hook. Before the knee surgery, Hakeem had destroyed similar beefy Jazz centers (Spencer). On a similar note, anyone want to pull up Shaq's numbers against Cato? Cato gave Shaq fits.
Where do you get that "... Russell ended up dominated [sic] him most of the time"? Head-to-head stats I've been able to find : Wilt vs. Russell (Regular Season) PPG : 30 vs. 14.2 REBS : 28.2 vs. 22.9 (Playoffs) PPG : 25.7 vs. 14.9 REBS : 28 vs. 24.7 Russell's teams dominated Wilt's teams, but Russell did not dominate Wilt.
Hakeem was by far the most talented center ever but if we're talking accomplishments and such, Wilt and Kareem are definitely ahead of him.
Those were the averages. Did you ever take look at the Game 7's? That's where Russell ended up shining and here's a fun fact for you. Bill Russell has never lost a Game 7 before. Wilt was considered a choker and missed big time FT's, while Russell was the guy who evolved in the spotlight.
I just saw this post when rereading this thread. Larry Bird was a stud when he played and he would be a stud now. Take Dirk, make him 10X tougher, 10X smarter, a better shooter, a a better defender and he'd almost be as good as Bird if Bird was having an off night. Larry Bird matched up with some guy that was pretty athletic name Magic Johnson, somebody considered possibly one of the top 3-4 players ever. The guy shot about 50% from the field 90% from the line, about 40% from 3s, he averaged 20/10/7 when he was about 35 with a back torn to shreds. That "white guy" averaged 10 rebounds for his career as well. The guy was a legendary player that would be just as legendary today. He was pissed off when they tried to guard him with white guys. The guy could do everything on the court. As for passing, go look at some of the youtube highlights. Larry Bird is probably the best passing forward in the history of the game. He also scoredabout 22,000 points, and probably would have had about 8,000 more points if he didn't play half of his career with a shredded back.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but a bit of context is needed here. His career average from 3 was 37%.(think Rafer in a good year) - he was fairly erratic from 3 point land from season to season (had a few years only hitting in the 20's, then got into the low 40's) and didn't shoot the volume that today's three point specialists do. (now it takes 5-600 attempts to lead the leauge, Larry never tried more than 200-something - four Rockets exceeded that this season...including Rafer and his partial season)
I wouldn't say top 5, but Yao would put up better numbers for sure. If there was no zone in today's game, he'd probably have 3-5 more points a game.
I agree. He probably would have a great at chance at being one of the better centers of all-time though then he is currently ranked. I think ZBoy summed it up perfectly about Hakeem and Shaq though. It's the reason why Hakeem didn't need any all-stars in his 1st championship run against the New York Knicks. It went to 7 games. Shaq needed Kobe simply because both his offensive and his defensive game is limited in a certain area.
Offense: Shaq vs. Hakeem is very close- Shaq's moves, though, were a lotta dunks- and his FT % was/is horrible. Hakeem better offensively. Defense: Not. Even. Close. You do realize that Hakeem is not only the all-time shot blocker, but also in the top 10 in steals?!? How do you NOT rank Hakeem as better?
