Russell was a better team player than Wilt was until later in Wilt's career. I won't deny that. This helped Russell win more rings. MVP's aren't an indicator of the better player. Do you honestly think MJ didn't deserve the MVP almost every dang year he played? Russell didn't get those wins by himself and it sure wasn't by holding Wilt down.
To me Wilt is the greatest center of all time. He was just on a different level compared to the rest of the league. Averaging 50 pts a game for a season? I have a hard time imagine in a post game interview some coach said "our defense was pretty good on Wilt, we held him to only 43 points tonight." That was just sick no matter what era he played in. And as Dr of Dunk mentioned, he led the league in assists for one year just because he thought it was a good idea to try it. Wilt was just on a completely different level compared to all others in his era, and for me that made him the greatest center of all time.
Hey guys, I dug up this ancient article from the SI Vault. It's dated November 25, 1968. It's an article about Elvin Hayes. It talks about how the Big E's coach protected him from having to go up against Russell and Wilt when he came into the league to boost his confidence. It reflects on comments Russell made to Elvin about Wilt and comments Wilt made. It's a pretty neat read : http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1148045/1/index.htm EXCERPT : --------------------------------------------------------- "Last summer, while Russell was in Los Angeles making a TV film," Hayes said, "he spent three days coaching me. One thing he told me was that Wilt was going to get his 20, 30 points a game, and he was going to get his rebounds, and nobody in the world was going to stop him. If Wilt wants to score, well, he's just going to score. Where you have to stop him is on his assists, his assists up the middle. Bill said if you don't stop him there he'll destroy you." Hayes began to laugh. "That dunk shot of Wilt's, it's inhuman. Not a man in the world can stop that, and I'd sure hate to be the one that had to try. One time I was under the basket when he dunked a shot. The force was unbelievable, unreal. I remember Nate Thurmond telling me—he said, 'Elvin, don't go in there and get yourself hurt.' " Chamberlain also met with Hayes before the season began. That was in New York when they both played in the Dr. Martin Luther King benefit game. Wilt had this bit of advice for the 6'9", 230-pound rookie: "Elvin, there are certain things you can't do when you play against me. Now, you can go outside and make the shot. But if you come inside on me, I'll take the ball away from you. O.K.?" "O.K.," said Elvin Hayes. Saturday night, when Russell moved in with his front-running Celtics, McMahon was right back with his confidence game. Hayes was at forward; poor Henry Finkel was the center. With Russell, the master defender, usually a safe distance away, Hayes poured in 26 points and had 17 rebounds. (Boston won, of course, 120-112.) "With Russell," said Hayes "you never know what to expect. He has such great lateral movement. He's always got an angle on you. He told me that he can take just two steps and block a shot from any position on the court. I remember the first time I was matched up against him. I was out in the corner and he was under the basket. I figured it was safe to shoot. But as I went up, there he was, tipping the shot. I said to him, 'Big Bill, why do you have to hustle so against a poor little rookie like me?' He said, 'Elvin, I've got a reputation to protect.' " Later Saturday night Russell sat in the visitors' dressing room, tired but more than a little pleased with Hayes's performance. "That Elvin—saying I'm his idol," said Russell gruffly, but grinning. "It's darn embarrassing. But he's a good kid. And he's going to be a great player. He's outstanding right now, but, of course, he's got a lot to learn." "Like what?" someone asked. Russell's laughter, deep and rich, boomed out. "I can't hardly tell him that. At least not while we're still playing." Then he added, softly, "But if he was to ask me himself, I'd tell him." Russell shook his head. "There's just one thing—when he gets out on the court and tries talking to me. Now that's my game. But I don't listen to him. The only time I listen to anybody out there is when I'm the one doing the talking." O.K., Elvin?
Like I said....Bird would have been good but not as good. The Jordan era was the transition for the NBA where athletic players begin to prosper and that was more of the latter stages of Bird's career. A lot of people compare Larry to Dirk but Dirk is pretty damn athletic for his height and that's what makes him so good. Nash has an extremely amazing niche with his passing. Was Larry ever as good as a passer as Nash was 2 or 3 years ago? Probably not. But like I said, Bird would still have been good. With the Larry vs Lebron argument we'll just have to agree to disagree bro.
Alright, I read what you originally wrote as saying his defense wasn't all that. I've seen the stats before, and just going by those my first reaction was to go "Wilt is a freak!" but I've never seen them play so I'll stop weighing in on this one. My fav. part of that article you posted was this Wilt quote: "Elvin, there are certain things you can't do when you play against me. Now, you can go outside and make the shot. But if you come inside on me, I'll take the ball away from you. O.K.?" "O.K.," said Elvin Hayes.
Disagree. Because the current officiating is so lax compared to the 80's and early 90's, an argument can be made that Bird would be better now than he was back then. If Dirk can prosper now, then there shouldn't be a question that a prime Bird could. Its not fair to compare the passing of Bird to Nash. You can compare almost anyone to Nash and that player would probably come up short. Bird isnt at Nash's level, but it would be difficult to find a current player (non-pg) that can pass better than Bird could.
Really? You have got to be kidding me. No way would prime Bird be better than Lebron. Bird had phenomal Bball IQ and intangibles, but in today's game he would be overmatched physically. Bird was fortunate he played in an era where white boys abounded so he could play against guys on the same level athletically. In today's game he'd probably be as athletic as Luke Walton. He'd probably still be a good player and win MVPs over the course of his career, but just as Nash and Dirk don't get into GOAT discussions, Bird would also not be in the mix if he played in today's era.
You may want to check out who he played with "in his era". Bird was unathletic for his era. He was always considered a slow white guy from French Lick who would light you up, talk trash better than just about anyone, and outscore and outrebound players with a lot more athleticism. He got the job done and tore up athletic players. I mean seriously, he kept people like Charles Barkley, Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, Julius Erving, Adrian Dantley, Terry Cummings, Ralph Sampson, and Karl Malone off the All NBA First Team from 1979-1987. Which of those players aren't athletic? And that's just the forwards he beat out. Bird was never the greatest defender, but nobody could defend him no matter how athletic they were.
any list without the Dream being #1 is blasphemous but no seriously, there isn't a single guy on that list who could do ALL of things Hakeem did, much less do them as well as he did.. not even close.. He is by far the most well rounded player in NBA history, and I don't think that's debatable.. THANK YOU D.o.D, for not putting Russell higher than the other 4 on that list! the guy is so freaking overrated in terms of pure talent.. yes, he helped them win, but freaking Ben Wallace helped the Pistons become the dynasty that they were (I still believe they would've been a lottery team without him), and yet everyone realizes that he isn't among the top players in the league.. now I understand that it's silly comparing Wallace's success with Russell's championships, but that's not the point..
I hate it when people throw out stats that are blatantly disingenuous in order to back their guy. There is no doubt in anyone's mind (but yours) that those Celtics teams, minus Russell, were much better than any team Wilt was on (minus Wilt). Wilt played for 3 teams in his career - Warriors, Sixers, Lakers. If each of those teams has 2 or 3 hall of famers at some point, that would equal 8 total. Russell, on the other hand, played for almost his whole career with 7 other Hall of Famers, each of whom won at least 7 rings with him.
This is what I feared the most making this thread is people calling Russell a glorified Ben Wallace that played with hall of famers. Honestly, I didn't even watch Russell myself, but to think this guy is some type of player that was only good defensively and a loser offensively is just an insult to Bill Russell. I have Kareem at first, but that's because he was an absolute beast on both ends and ahead of every center miles offensively.
Exactly. Hakeem is the one that dominated the most and won with the least amount of talent in their supporting cast. However, we are talking about players here. It is really hard to argue he is the greatest center of all-time when you have a guy like Kareem who won a Finals MVP and the league MVP in his 2nd year in the league when he was aged 23. The only way you would know how dominate and good Kareem is if you honestly watched him play or watched a good amount of footage of him. I love Hakeem and he's my favorite one in the Top 5, but Kareem was better.
You are aware that from 2004 untill 2006 we have had Nash as MVP 2 times and one TIme Dirk "I can't beat he 8th seeded team" Nowitzki I agree with DOD. Russel is an amazing player. But i would rank him as 5th. My list would be Wilt Kareem (because of his long career I would rank him above Hakeem) Hakeem Shaq (Because he wasn't great at the end of games I Rank him below Hakeem) Russel (amazing player, but his offense wasn't that good, like DoD said his FG% just isn't that good)
Yes, I am aware of that. I also think they were deserved. Prior to adding Nash, the Suns had 29 wins. After adding him, they went to 62 wins. And the next year, almost all of his stats increased. And as for Dirk, he was the best player on the team with the best record when he won.
