<table class="tableizer-table"><tr class="tableizer-firstrow"><th>Rk</th><th>Player</th><th>Regular Season PER</th><th></th><th>Rk</th><th>Player</th><th>Playoffs PER</th></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>Michael Jordan*</td><td>27.9</td><td></td><td>1</td><td>Michael Jordan*</td><td>28.6</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>LeBron James</td><td>27.5</td><td></td><td>2</td><td>LeBron James</td><td>27.1</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>Shaquille O'Neal</td><td>26.4</td><td></td><td>3</td><td>Shaquille O'Neal</td><td>26.1</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>David Robinson*</td><td>26.2</td><td></td><td>4</td><td>Hakeem Olajuwon*</td><td>25.7</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>Dwyane Wade</td><td>25.6</td><td></td><td>5</td><td>Tim Duncan</td><td>25.3</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>Chris Paul</td><td>25.5</td><td></td><td>6</td><td>Dirk Nowitzki</td><td>24.7</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>Tim Duncan</td><td>24.8</td><td></td><td>7</td><td>Charles Barkley*</td><td>24.2</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>Charles Barkley*</td><td>24.6</td><td></td><td>8</td><td>Dwyane Wade</td><td>24.1</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>Magic Johnson*</td><td>24.1</td><td></td><td>9</td><td>Magic Johnson*</td><td>23</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>Karl Malone*</td><td>23.9</td><td></td><td>10</td><td>David Robinson*</td><td>23</td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>Hakeem Olajuwon*</td><td>23.6</td><td></td><td>11</td><td>Kobe Bryant</td><td>22.4</td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>Larry Bird*</td><td>23.5</td><td></td><td>12</td><td>Kevin Garnett</td><td>21.5</td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>Dirk Nowitzki</td><td>23.5</td><td></td><td>13</td><td>Larry Bird*</td><td>21.4</td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>Kobe Bryant</td><td>23.4</td><td></td><td>14</td><td>Karl Malone*</td><td>21.1</td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>Kevin Garnett</td><td>23.2</td><td></td><td>15</td><td>Pau Gasol</td><td>20.9</td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td>Julius Erving*</td><td>22.4</td><td></td><td>16</td><td>Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*</td><td>20.8</td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>Moses Malone*</td><td>22.4</td><td></td><td>17</td><td>Shawn Kemp</td><td>20.5</td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td>Dwight Howard</td><td>22.3</td><td></td><td>18</td><td>Manu Ginobili</td><td>20.2</td></tr><tr><td>19</td><td>Amare Stoudemire</td><td>22.2</td><td></td><td>19</td><td>Steve Nash</td><td>19.9</td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>Adrian Dantley*</td><td>22.1</td><td></td><td>20</td><td>John Stockton*</td><td>19.8</td></tr></table> Minimum 500 games. Hakeem increases his PER by more than 2 points (only player to do so) in the playoffs. That's why I think Hakeem belongs in the top 5 conversation and is better than David Robinson despite the big difference in PER in the regular season. Can't blame a guy for saving it all for the playoffs.
Pure knowledge, lol what does that even mean? I have watched Olajuwon since a little bit before his prime (90-91?), and I still remember watching Duncan as a rookie facing Hakeem during preaseason. Absolutely no way Duncan is a better defender / rebounder than Hakeem.
I have highlighted all the wrongs. "Pure knowledge" when it comes to defensive rebounding. Thats a first. :grin:
Positioning, then. Defensive rebounding is about boxing your man out and ensuring that they don't have the chance to grab the offensive rebound, and is thus more important than offensive rebounding. It should be noted in rebounding that Duncan is quite a bit a better than Hakeem at the defensive rebounding numbers, and Hakeem had a small edge on the offensive. Secondly, on passing and scoring. Duncan is clearly better than Hakeem on passing. There's nothing to debate. 3.1 assists versus 2.5 turnovers against Hakeem who had 2.5 assists and 3 turnovers per game. Duncan has nearly 500 more assists for his career than Hakeem, and he has at least two more solid years of play from my perspective. A 16.5 Assist Rate versus a 12.5 Assist rate. A 12.2 Turnover Rate to a 13.1 Turnover rate. Everything is in Duncan's favor. If you want to laugh at what I state, you better back up what you're claiming. Scoring is in Hakeem's favor. But not by a lot. He just edges out Duncan on TS% and eFG%. Hakeem also gets another boost because he was more of a volume scorer than Duncan, who really didn't need to score anyways. So, Hakeem has an advantage in scoring, but not by much. Blocks and steals are borderline useless defensive statistics - I'll basically take Morey's word for it that there aren't ANY good defensive metrics out there for the public, but box score stats are among the worst. Like I said, Iverson has a ton of steals, but he was a crap defender. Camby had a lot of blocks, but he was always overrated anyways. Eddy Curry blocked more shots than the Chuckwagon, but everyone knows who is the vastly superior defender. What I can say, however, is that Duncan has anchored some of the best Spurs defensive teams in the last decade. Like Hakeem. Finally, temperament. Can you picture Duncan getting kicked out for fighting on a crucial Game 5 in the Playoffs? I absolutely cannot. Yes, Hakeem cooled down later, but when we're looking at the entirety of their careers, what they did at the beginning still matters.
1. His Airness 2. Magic 3. Bird 4. The Dream 5. Abdul-Jabbar 6. Moses 7. AI (controversial but he did made a statement for the guards) 8. The Big Fundamental 9. King James 10. Diesel
Defensive rebounding is about positioning and offensive is not?! You are just spewing crap. You are emphasizing the difference between 2.5 vs 3.1 in assists while claiming blocks and steals are borderline useless stats?! Nice. The numbers that Hakeem amassed on steals and blocks were boderline insane. We are not talking about some guy inflating his stats here. 8 out of 10 people outside of Spurs or Rockets forums who have watched both play will take Hakeem's defense over Duncan's defense. Thats not to say Duncan was bad. Its just that Hakeem was much better. Better shot blocker and greater range and mobility out on the perimeter. As far as those steals and blocks go, when Jordan was asked to pick one big man for his All time great team, it was Hakeem and thisis what he had to say... "I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him." - Michael Jordan So please stop with the blocks and steals as useless stats. Thats just a silly statement. Duncan has gone up against weaker competition. He has been abused in the post by Pau Gasol, Randolph, and David West. There is absolutely no way that Hakeem would let Pau, Randolph or David West get the better of him in low post. While Hakeem destroyed a prime Karl Malone whenever the Jazz switched him on Hakeem, Duncan struggled one on one against an over-the-hill Karl Malone. Hakeem went up against some of the best big men in the history of the game (Robinson, Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Shaq) and no one can say they have bested him, while Hakeem can claim he has won the matchup against every single one of them. And yes, he was a terrific team defender. If you think Duncan could have had that block against Starks on the perimeter in game 6, you are flat out lying. Duncan does not have the lateral quickness that Hakeem did, neither was he athletic enough to make a play like that. Hakeem was better defensively against a much stronger competition. As for offense, Hakeem was a more dominant scorer in the post. He had more moves, better range, was more athletic, and was a better FT shooter. The Rockets offense required Hakeem to dominate every single night. If Hakeem had been neutralized in the post like Duncan was against the Pistons, there is no way Rockets wouuld have won the chmpionships. If anyone thinks Duncan could have carried the Rockets offense against the Knicks frontline, they are lying. I have never seen a prime Hakeem lose a matchup on offense. I have seen Duncan lose his matchup multiple times. You are really grasping at straws with the temperament thing. If you are gong to use an ejection from Game 6 of his second year in the playoffs, I can just as easily turn it around and claim Hakeem was a more fierce competitor. Larry Bird knocked the crap out of Laimbeer and was ejected in the playoffs. Guess what? I loved his temperament! I also want to add that Hakeem is the best closer I have seen for a big man. With the game on the line, Hakeem would consistently get that critical block or steal, or score points or get open shots for his teammates, and was a very clutch FT shooter. I would not have the same trust with Duncan with the game on the line like I did with Hakeem. He is neither as dominant in the post, nor is he a very good FT shooter. Hakeem is one of the only two players I have seen that were without any flaws you could exploit against them. Jordan being the other. Every other player has had one or a few flaws you can exploit especially in a playoff series. Horry has played with Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan and seen the best of the three. The player he says time and time again that is the best among the three? Hakeem. When Shaq is asked about the big man he has gone up against, his response as to who was the best? Hakeem. So if you are going to claim that Duncan was better, you better bring in some solid evidence rather than cherry picking at the stats and coining phrases such as "pure knowledge".
I'm going to go with guys who's first year was 1980 and later. 1. Michael Jordan 2. Magic Johnson 3. Larry Bird 4. Hakeem Olajuwon 5. Tim Duncan 6. Shaquille O'Neal 7. Kevin Garnett 8. LeBron James 9. Karl Malone 10. Kobe Bryant Is this fairly agreeable?
Yeah that's a good list. I would personally put Kobe over Karl Malone because durability with elite play as a guard is more impressive to me than durability as a big. David Robinson's regular season numbers are fantastic as well. His playoff series with Hakeem killed his rep though and then Duncan stole the credit for the 2 rings.
Joining in on the Hakeem vs. Duncan debate: a big underrated part of his defensive game was that he could successfully guard guards. His mobility was out of this world for a C. This is greatly underrated among big man of this day, and is one of the biggest knocks on Bynum or any other slow center out there. I forgot where it was, but Kenny Smith was saying about a time when Hakeem switched the PnR, Hakeem said (something near this) "don't worry Kenny, just hold off the post for five seconds. Ill shut down your guy then help off and block my guy's shot". Just unbelievable in any sort of defensive philosophy or situation. If you showed tape to young players on how to play post defence, PnR, etc., they would show Hakeem, not Duncan.
BTW my argument was for Dream, I realized my punctuation made it seem that my argument was for Duncan.
Duncan is better than Robinson, of course. But, Dream would still give him fits defensively. Shaq and Dwight Howard are the best two defenders Duncan played against, and, well, Hakeem Olajuwon is a much different animal.
Are you serious with this tripe? First off, Morey is nuts if he really thinks steals and blocks are useless defensive measures. Now, he's right that in a vacuum, steals and blocks may not be the only way to measure defensive effectiveness, but they are far from useless. For example, Chuck Hayes can't hold a candle to Olajuwon defensively, no matter how much Morey or other saber metric guys say he can. However, the true judge is the eye test, which with Hakeem, you obviously haven't done. Go look up Hakeem blocking Rod Strickland in the playoffs, or Kevin Johnson. He is out of both plays, races back, and blocks their shots as they are about to get easy layups or dunks. He didn't get steals and blocks by gambling off his man. He was the extremely rich man's Dwight Howard. He picked guys pockets in the post, and was the best weak side shot blocker in NBA history. He made up for numerous teammates mistakes with that skill. Here's another play for you: last possession, game 6 1994 NBA finals vs the Knicks. Who is it coming out to contest a potential game winning three by John Starks? None other than Hakeem Olajuwon. He blocks the shot too. Hakeem Olajuwon is arguably the best defender in NBA history, and for you to discredit him by claiming blocks and steals are useless, is criminal.
Post it too long to quote it all, but that was seriously one of the best posts I've ever read on here.
Garnett, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace (on the same team, no less), the Mailman, Webber were all competent post defenders Duncan has had to deal with. Not a lot of great centers, but the golden age of Power Forwards.
1. Jordan 2. Magic 3. Bird 4. Olajuwon 5. Duncan 6. Shaq 7. Bryant 8. Moses 9. LeBron 10. Barkley Tough ones were Duncan-Hakeem (very close) and deciding on Barkley over Karl Malone. LeBron will almost certainly move up to 6 with another championship, and I suspect he will be pushing top 3 by the end of his career. Similarly, I expect Durant to crack this list soon.
You can add Chuck Hayes to the list if you want to mention good post defenders. However, none of those guys had Hakeem's shot blocking skill. And considering Duncan is taller than almost every one of those guys, it's a big deal. Most of them can't really bother his shot like Hakeem could.
Offensive boards are more scarce. Offensive boards lead to points at a greater rate. Defensive boards skew toward good defensive teams. All your base are wrong.
