Hmmmm, Let me try again...Tony parker is better because he fits his team and knows his role. He's a smarter PG, behind Duncan. Now, as far as age. His age is a bonus because his future looks bright; he has time on his side to improve. This is all good for the Spurs. The team. Francis does not fit this team because he's plays best as an individual. He really doesn't know his role. He thinks he's the man, but is not smart enough to fit that role. Especially not the PG role. His future doesn't look bright because he's getting older and hasn't shown any substantial improvement in 5 years. Athletic ability can get you only so far. Time is not on his side. You have to ask yourself, what do you want our team to look like in the future? Same ole sloppy, ugly ball or something better? IMO, it would be better to have a TMac/Parker/Yao team, than a Francis/Mobley/Yao team. Do you see how "team" is key here? The first one is a SMARTER and more POTENT team!
20 6 6 is overrated, at least in Steve's case, which is kinda sad because those are pretty impressive numbers. In any case, I'd still take the playoff Steve Francis over the playoff Tony Parker. Francis' fearlessness, though he did make some terrible boneheaded moves, was invaluable in the playoffs. If only he knew how to better utilize his talents...ah, that would be something wouldn't it?
Parker will give you some great games during the season and he is the perfect fit for his team. But lets be real, as much as I love the Rockets and support every player on the team, we don't really have any Superstar players.........yet. We're still struggling to find the right chemistry. How can you expect Francis to play the 'role' of a true PG when there is no supporting cast. You need your teamates to make the shots in order to get the assists. Now francis has been conditioned to play the offensive role out of necessity and its been a difficult process in getting him to change his ways. His role has always been the go to guy. Parker on the other hand has walked into the league with Duncan and there is no pressure on him to come out and score every night. Duncan will always be there night in and night out to have a big game. I've seen plenty of bad plays from Parker just as I have from Francis. As much as Francis will over dribble and Turn the ball over, Parker will make some crazy attempt to drive the ball to the hole when there are 3 trees in the key and lose the ball. Maybe he is just young and they are young mistakes, or maybe it isn't smart ball and he won't change.
Quote by robbarnett Now francis has been conditioned to play the offensive role out of necessity and its been a difficult process in getting him to change his ways. His role has always been the go to guy. ___________________ I think that you have just hit the nail on the head. In SF's first four years under RudyT, he was not asked to assume a "true" PG role. He was asked to score, to use his athletic ability to control the tempo in the half court set, etc... I didn't see any of his Maryland games, but I did attend SJC, where he was asked to do essentially the same thing. This is the first year SF has tried to change his ways, which I believe is the reason his numbers were down this year. I believe that had he not been asked to change his game, he would have averaged 21/6/6 like he had in previous 2 years, or even better. That's not an excuse for his failings (TO's), just a fact.
You will never win with a PG playing scared either. Unless you have the games best player (Duncan) and another PG to come off the pine (Claxton) when your no balls PG loses his confidence. Yeah, key phrase being behind Duncan. Just because Tony plays with (and off of) the games best player does not make him better than SF. Is he a better fit for the Spurs? Possibly, but I bet Pop would ship him for Stevie in a minute. Just because you are better for a system (that revolves around the games best player) does not make you better than XYZ player, who does not have that dominant force on his team. Stevie might not be the best fit for this team, but to claim that Parker is better is silly. I have seen Stevie play stupid, but never play scared. Stevie carried his team against LA, the same team that Parker wilted against when the going got tough.
Do we really want that? Francis criticism has been deserved. Think about the past of this team. Think about the future of this team. I mean, do you really want a player that plays "stupid and brave?" Why? If SF is at PG again next year, nothing will change. All I can say is: time will tell. Who will have a more successful career (titles)? We'll just have to wait and see. All you have to do is look at who has won championsips in the last 20 years. What type of team? And what type of leaders lead those teams? None of them had "stupid but brave" players. They had "smart and brave" players carrying their respective teams. Duncan/Parker/Robinson, Shaq/Kobe, Hakeem/Drexler, Jordan/Pippen, Isiah/Lambier, Magic/Kareem, Bird/McHale, etc... One note: How can you say that Francis carried his team against the LA? Carried to what? I mean, didn't the Spurs win the 1st round and win two games vs the Lakers? But that's supposed to be worse than what Steve did vs the Lakers (one win)? I mean, I'm really getting tired of all this, "But SF scored this, and SF scored that..." What difference does that make if it doesn't equate to more wins? That's an honest question. If we focus on individual stats over the team, we'll never win a championship. This does not discount the fact that we need extraordinary talent. That's why I want T-Mac to lead this team, not SF. Seriously, if we really want SF to become more SG-like, then why not get a real SG? Why beat around the bush? PG: Barry (6'6") <---someday I hope we aquire Hinrich SG: McGrady (6'8") C: Yao (7'6") That's our core team....then we get some good role players to complement that core.
i know DavidS that you never was a big steve fan. but what do you not understand about the fact that parker played with DUNCAN and steve played with Yao???? Parker is the second player on his team behind one of the best nba players. Steve is the first player on his team especially this play offs. so parker won 2 games as the second player adn steve won one game as the best player on the team. Do you really believe that the rockets would win more games with parker instead of Francis, and that the spurs would win less games with steve instead of parker?
Not sure why SF is called Stupid? He may not have a genius BBall IQ, but he is not stupid. I would liken it more to comparing students in a class room environment. SF is more like the "B" student (IQ wise), who is above average but not the straight A Student. His effort (bravery) is what makes him a great student (player). He does not have to be the class valedictorian (Kidd, Stockton, etc.) to be a functioning member of society (NBA) at a very high level. I know quite a few "B" students that went on to be the CEO or even the owner of a fairly large corporation, while the valedictorian became the used store book salesman. The moral of the story is that you don't have to be a Mensa to be a great player in the NBA. No offence, but TP does not belong in the list of names quoted below. TP is a cog in the wheel, not the hub. Including him in the equation would be like saying Duncan/Horry, Hakeem/Brown/KSmith, Shaq/Fisher/George, Jordan/Kerr, etc... Those guys were all on the championship teams, and were invaluable to the effort, but they did not carry their respective teams. If TP is in that category, then all of my basketball heros were really second teer players who just got lucky. "Duncan/Parker/Robinson, Shaq/Kobe, Hakeem/Drexler, Jordan/Pippen, Isiah/Lambier, Magic/Kareem, Bird/McHale, etc..." Francis did carry his team against the LA. The supporting cast was sporadic at best, including Yao (who will probably be in TD's class in a few years, but not yet). Yes they only won one game, but were on the cusp of winning another two (if JJ had hit the "wide open" 3 that SF set him up for in the closing seconds of game one, we would have one another, and maybe changed the course of the series). Note that the one they did win, SF carried them on his back. Yao is supposed to be option one, but when he doesn't come through, then SF has to take charge, which he did. The primary difference between the Spurs winning round one and two games against the lakers would be TD, whose shoulders are slightly broader that SF's. TD is arguably top 1,2,3 player, while SF is more of a top 25 guy. That's not a knock on SF, just a fact. In regards to the T-Mac arguement, I agree with DavidS on this one. T-Mac>>SF. I would trade for T-Mac in a heartbeat as lond as it didn't cost us the farm, but not becasue SF sucks. It would be becasue T-Mac is a far greater player.
What words would you have us refer to a player who fouls Karl Malone in the back court near the end of the first half when the Lakers are in the bonus in a game that we lose in OT? Or, in a game against an opponent who has one of the worst FT %ages in league history, he dribbles out the clock instead of getting a sure 2? (Last 15 seconds of Spurs' loss). Or a player who decides to go to the basket with the ball when his teammate is wide open on the wing? (FB opportunity with JJax in LA playoff series). Or a player who during games skips up the court dribbling the ball while his coach extolls him from the sidlines to keep forcing tempo and get into the offense quicker? (JVG's sideline demeanor for 82 regular season games and most of the playoffs). The list goes on and on and on.... When there is a continuing barrage of repeated mistakes that are generally the realm of rookies, what descriptive adjective other than "stupid" would you like to suggest?
Quote by Gater What words would you have as refer to a player who fouls Karl Malone in the back court near the end of the first half when the Lakers are in the bonus in a game that we lose in OT? Or, in a game against an opponent who has one of the worst FT %ages in league history, he dribbles out the clock instead of getting a sure 2? (Last 15 seconds of Spurs' loss). Or a player who decides to go to the basket with the ball when his teammate is wide open on the wing? (FB opportunity with JJax in LA playoff series). Or a player who during games skips up the court dribbling the ball while his coach extolls him from the sidlines to keep forcing tempo and get into the offense quicker? (JVG's sideline demeanor for 82 regular season games and most of the playoffs). The list goes on and on and on.... When there is a continuing barrage of repeated mistakes that are generally the realm of rookies, what descriptive adjective other than "stupid" would you like to suggest? ________________ Try "Human". Yes SF makes mistakes, but so does everyone else, including all of the great players in history. In second laker squeaker in the play-offs, Kobe shoots a horrible 3 pointer with two hands in his face, off balance, and out of control that would be considered a rookie mistake, if not for Shaq being there for the gift caused by Yao not blocking out his man, that would have been a rocket win, which I might add that the rocks would not have been in a position to win had it not been for SF's marvelous performance (I think it was a triple double in the line of 19/11/12).. But in response to your specific examples. For example one, I am sure that SF fouling CM at the half was the reason that we lost an OT game to the Lakers, come on give me a break. Nothing that occured in the second half had anything to do with it??? Don't remember the Spurs loss, so I can't speak to the specific situation. But again, he is human. Example 3, what about that masterful drive and perfect pass to JJ for the wide open shot that was missed by JJ that cost us the game. I guess JJ missing the shot was SF's fault too? Point four, I would call that being hard headed, not stupid. There is a difference you know. I am sure that one can pick any great player and look into his past and find multiple incidents of making mistakes similar to the ones you point out above (in the realm of a rookie mistake). But for as many of SF's mistakes you can point out, there are multiple successful plays that counteract the bad. Just because someone makes mistakes, doesn't make them stupid.
The same adjective must then be applied to a player... Who fails to box his man out (which he fails to do constantly) in the last 17 seconds of a playoff game (in which your team is leading) and then compound the problem by failing to foul one of the worst free throw shooters (Shaq) in history before he dunks the ball to give his team the lead... and the victory (Rockets vs. Lakers playoff game 1) Or a player who, despite constant reminders from team mates and coaches alike, continues to bring the ball down where smaller players can swipe\steal the ball. Or a 7 foot 6 inch player that 2 to 5 feet from the basket deciding to pass out to a team mate that is 18 to 20 feet from the basket, instead of being aggressive and using his size to take it to the rack (or jump hook even) on the 6 foot 9 inch player that is gaurding him... this list goes on and on as well... hey I like this game... shall we play on? All players make mistakes, some players have bad habits, this by no means makes them stupid...
That's not a fair comparison! It would be better to have a TMac/[almost any other starting PG]/Yao team than a Francis/Mobley/Yao team. Ok, that's because I think McGrady is THAT good. That said, I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that if we can get McGrady AND Parker to play with Yao, I'd do it in a heartbeat and give up whatever players we have to get there. I just think we'll have to settle for less of a star at PG if we land (and pay to keep) McGrady. Someone on Heinrich's level, as I think you suggested elsewhere, would be great. I'm actually in the stand by our man (Stevie) camp, but then again I've always had a tendency toward stubborn loyalty to young guys who play hard even if they don't always play smart, along with an appreciation for guards who rebound and aren't afraid of contact in the lane (on the theory that experience and maturity may increase one's game IQ but probably not one's willingness to take or initiate contact). But McGrady is an elite player. If we can afford to keep both Yao and him on the roster, then we've gotta do it. But I'm still dismayed by all the Francis bashing. I have a lot of Lakers-fan friends, and I remember a lot of similar Kobe bashing early in his career. (too selfish, not a good team player, can't be good unless he's got the ball all the time, poor decision maker, turnover prone) I remember thinking that we Houston fans were less fickle and more patient, but now I've been forced to concede to them that fans are pretty much the same wherever you go. This was Francis's first playoff series after having to make a year of adjustments to a new coach and a new playing style. I think he deserves at least a 2nd playoff series before we write him off. Fine if we want to give up on him if he shows no improvement in next year's playoffs, but at least a 2nd playoff series seems reasonable for a guy who loves playing for us, has talent, and always leaves it on the floor.
wheelmi, I don't think we are just talking about "simple mistakes." We are talking about an innate tendency of SF to make high nunber of bad mistakes each game (his whole career). You said yourself that SF was not a good PG. But why make him play this role? Why? I mean, I've noticed this "high mistake tendency" for the last 5 years. In his first year, I was like, "We'll he's a rookie." It was halfway though his 2nd year, that I knew something was wrong. He was doing some of the same mistakes that I saw at the University of Maryland (I live in Maryland). This is why people keep pointing out age as a factor in determining what level a player should play at: Parker or Yao are doing fine considering their NBA experience. They both are young and are expected to make *some* mistakes." Taking that in to consideration they are not doing that bad (Yao problem is aggressiveness). If Parker or Yao were to keep making the same rookie mistakes (and amount) five or six years from now...well, that's another story. Francis makes more that just "simple mistakes (human)." He has not learned in this area in 5 years of play.
Actually, I would want McGrady as the leader, Barry as the PG, then Yao...but I'll humor the Parker question... As far as a TMac/Parker/Yao (***example***) team. That team would be a better unit. It shouldn't be about taking individual players and then just adding up their stats and then hoping that that will pan out into more wins. That's why Parker with McGrady would be better in the long run. Don't forget about Yao either. He's part of that core. The key here is TEAM. Not just getting players that have some statistical advantages, and then hope that they will figure out on their own how to fit with the team. And one of the problems is that Francis IS trying fill the role of Duncan. And yes it's true that Parker is in a secondary role. But that's the point. What is better? Us trying make Francis play a role (PG or leader) that he's not suited for and hope that he'll become a better scorer or smarter player? Or just get the players that can do a better job than he? He is not fit to do the lead role or the PG role. It's soooo evident.
