QUOTE by snowmt01 TP missed 7 games at the start of last season _________________ You are kiddding me, I must have missed that in the multiple other e-mails preceding this one. It was meant to be flip due to the fact that DavidS was harrassing me about averages.
Wait a minute. So, are you saying is that Francis's statistics somehow make a difference in the way he runs the PG position? You call him a combo guard. That's an old excuse for a guard that is supposed to play both PG and SG well. He doesn't. He plays neither well. All the stats you list just look good on paper. So, yes..."Averages are designed to provide an analysis of efficiency" So, what picture does it paint for you? Does it make the team better? Does it make him and the team efficient? Does he run the fast-break properly? Does he setup his teammates consistently when running the half-court? See, he hurts the team with his sloppy play as much as he helps the team w/his hustle. "Combo guard" or not. And were are those "stats" now? I mean, didn’t you even read any of the articles/posts that described "talent" as something that can be related to "smart decision" making? Efficient play is taking advantage of each possession by not constantly turning the ball over. Don't you even see any of these factors and how the play out on the floor? Are you completely overlooking these things? Taking into account someones stats is fine...but hear this...You can list stats all day, if they are used unwisely, they are wasted stats. They look fine on paper. But not on the court. Your statment is true, "So I would say that averages are one of the most valuable tools in evaluating a player’s performance and determining his value." But it doesn't end there. You just don't take the stats and then make a judgement based on those stats alone. You have to look at how they integrate themselves into the team and watch them on the court. Francis is not a good team player. Also, about the SG spot. Ok, sure....Move him to SG. Limit his responsibility. But why? Not for a max contract player. It's better to just trade him. That’s just the thing. That player has to have a consistency in executing those passes and or plays. But Francis gets turnovers in ways that far exceed just "assist attempts," i.e. trying to make an assisted play. For example… He'll bring the ball up the court; drive into the lane where three defenders are waiting. That's just dumb. He'll bring the ball up the court and dribble left, then right, and then off this foot. He'll run on the fast break, and instead of passing to an open JJ, he'll keep the ball, try to shake his man and then end up getting called for a charge. The list goes on and on... So the definition of "unforced turnover" is not whether or not they have a stat category for it. I know they all go into one stat column. I was talking about how he goes about getting those turnovers. They are caused by him failing to recognize the opportunities. And he has an obvious inaccurate passing ability. All this with the least amount of pressure (if any). It's mental and skills (lacking). I mean, I could understand if he was being pressed hard by a guard or maybe doubled teamed and then Francis turned the ball over. Or if someone was playing hard defense on the fast-break and they just barely stole the ball of the the air. Or if a defender was playing man-on-man and was able to pressure Francis into a TO and then get the steal. Sure, all those are reasonable. But this is not what happens. He causes many of the TO by himself based on bad decision making. He just doesn’t have the smarts. So, you want to think that he's a "combo guard" and somehow that's supposed to make his game "better?" Have at it. But he's not worth having on this team. Not for a max-contract player. He's not worth that.
Quote by DavidS Wait a minute. So, are you saying is that Francis's statistics somehow make a difference in the way he runs the PG position? You call him a combo guard. That's an old excuse for a guard that is supposed to play both PG and SG well. He doesn't. He plays neither well. All the stats you list just look good on paper. So, yes..."Averages are designed to provide an analysis of efficiency" So, what picture does it paint for you? Does it make the team better? Does it make him and the team efficient? Does he run the fast-break properly? Does he setup his teammates consistently when running the half-court? See, he hurts the team with his sloppy play as much as he helps the team. "Combo guard" or not. And were are those "stats" now? I mean, didn’t you even read any of the articles/posts that described "talent" as something that can be related to "smart decision" making? Efficient play is taking advantage of each possession by not constantly turning the ball over. I mean, don't you even see any of these factors and how the play out on the floor? Are you completely overlooking these things? Taking into account someones stats is fine...but hear this...You can list stats all day, if they are used unwisely, they are wasted stats. They look good on paper. But not on the court. ___________________ Errrr, not what I said at all, or can’t you read. Once again, the thread is who is better, SF or TP, not who is the better PG, for the umpteenth time. I am not arguing whether SF is a better point guard or not, please get that through your thick skull. A combo guard is an exceptional player that does not have a natural position, not some one who is supposed to be great at both, and he plays both well. Yes he makes the team better; he has carried this team most of the last 5 years. Again, you are arguing with your heart, and not your head. Yes he plays sloppy at times, but the other things he gives the team far outweigh the negatives you are so focused on. Yes I read your posts, and you seem to be discounting talent. I played PG in high school until I broke my neck in a car wreck, and I was a very smart decision maker (all district PG as a sophomore), but car wreck or not, I did not have the “TALENT” to make it to the NBA. At the NBA level, talent is of utmost importance, and you can’t discount that, no matter how hard you try. Without talent, no player will make it at this level. Sf’s talent is one of the things that makes him so great. Without the talent he has, he would just be another TP. Note to self, efficient play is taking advantage of your talents, and the opportunities that present themselves in the course of the game (other teams weaknesses). Yes constantly turning the ball over is inefficient, but you can be inefficient at one statistical category and efficient at the others to the benefit of the team, hence the other stats that you are ignoring. “I mean, don't you even see any of these factors and how the play out on the floor? Are you completely overlooking these things?” Look, you can discount stats all day long, but they are what they are. And yes you are using those stats unwisely. Stats are all on paper, not on the court, the play is on the court, and the stats are merely a representation of the play on the court over the course of time. You can say they are worthless, wasted, or whatever, but the stats still playout SF is better than TP, without a doubt. Quote by DavidS And were are those "stats" now? ____________________ Give me a break, you cannot discount the overwhelming amount of statistical superiority of SF over TP, and imagine that you have somehow proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that TP is even remotely better. Glad you are not my attorney! Your weak arguments are beginning to bore me. Quote by DavidS That’s just the thing. That player has to have a consistency in executing those passes and or plays. But Francis gets turnovers in ways that far exceed past "assist attempts." For example… He'll bring the ball up the court; drive into the lane where three defenders are waiting. That's just dumb. He'll bring the ball up the court and dribble left then right, and then right off this foot. He'll run on the fast break, and instead of passing to an open JJ, he'll keep the ball, try to shake his man and then end up getting called for a charge. The list goes on and on... ________________________ What is so funny, is that in many of these situations you describe, SF drives into the lane, three defenders collapse on him, he passes out to JJ of CM, or whoever, and they make a wide open shot because their man is trying to guard SF, or he dribbles right, left, crossover, and the opposing player’s ankles are so twisted they look like a grandma’s face and then he drives to the basket for a easy 2. The list goes on and on……, are the very action that make SF so exciting. Quote by DavidS So the definition of "unforced turnover" is not whether or not they have a stat category for it. I know they all go into one stat column. I was talking about how he goes about getting those turnovers. They are caused by him failing to recognize the opportunities for passing. And a obvious inaccurate passing ability.. All this with the least amount of pressure (if any). It's mental and skills (lacking). I mean, I could understand if he was being pressed hard by a guard or maybe doubled teamed and then Francis turned the ball over. Or if someone was playing hard defense on the fast-break and they just barely stole the ball of the the air. Or if a defender was playing man-on-man and was able to pressure Francis into a TO and then get the steal. Sure, all those are reasonable. But this is not what happens. He causes many of the TO by himself based on bad decision making. He just doesn’t have the smarts. ________________________________ It’s not the fact that there is a stat category, it’s a fundamental truth. A turnover is a turnover, the fact that it is unforced is the whole point. SF is getting his turnovers like anybody else, he is making a mistake, regardless of whether he dribbles off his foot, throws an errant pass, or whatever “way he get a TO” you can quote. You honestly think that SF has no pressure on him during a game?? What a quack! I don’t disagree that his basketball IQ is lower than other players, it just that his talent, skill, and God given ability are so awesome that it makes up for the lack of BBall IQ. If someone "barely steals" the ball, it is not an TO (unforced or otherwise), its is a steal, which by the way if I havn't mentioned, SF had approximately 82 more than TP in 2003. Oh, but I forgot, that stat isn't worth the paper its written on?? Quotes by DavidS So, you want to think that he's a "combo guard" and somehow that's supposed to make his game better? Have at it. But he's not worth having on this team. Not for a max-contract player. He's not worth that. Also, about the SG spot. Ok, sure....Move him to SG. Limit his responsibility. But why? Not for a max contract player. It's better to just trade him. _______________________ Yes, the fact that he is a “combo guard” does make his game better, hence the significant stat advantage over TP. He is definitely worth having on our team, max contract or not. The truth is, without SF and with TP, we are not in the playoffs in 2004. I think that is worth a lot. I do not think that we should move him to the 2, I was merely discussing the impact of doing so and noting that he would STILL be one of the best players in the league. A combo guard. I am not opposed to trading him, but I would be opposed to trading him for toilet paper (TP) and some change, unless the change was pretty damn good talent.
Your whole post is semantics on how we each define "talent" and "best (SF vs TP)" You define "better" differently. So be it. You see a list of stats, and "extra ordinary athletic ablitity", a "god given talent," that SF has over others. But that "god given atheletic ablitity" does not equate to a complete player in the NBA. Not without the basketball IQ that is required to excecute the decision making on the court every single game. Regardless of what postion they play. PG just happens to be extra imporant in terms of "IQ." But not exclusive to just that postion. And when you leave out the "IQ" part, this can limit a player's ability to think and figure out how to intergrate into the team. The most important factors of long term success. Not indivivual stats. As far as the trade. It would not be done for "toilet paper." It would be done for another "star." Like many post that are going around the BBS about McGrady. Whether or not we get him is another story. If we don't trade Francis we'll be average/good team for years to come. But never really going anywere. Big deal about the play-offs if we just keep getting knocked out every year. Francis can't stay here and at the same time get another "star." Not with his contract.
Quote by DavidS Your whole post is semantics no how we each define "talent" and "best (SF vs TP)" You define "better" differently. So be it. You see a list of stats, and atheletic ablitity, a "god given" talent that he has over others. But that "god given atheletic ablitity" does not equate to a complete player. Not without the basketball IQ that is required to excecute the decision making on the court every single game. Regardless of what postion they play. PG just happens to be extra imporant in terms of "IQ." But not exclusive to just that postion. As far as the trade. It would not be done for "toilet paper." It would be done for another "star." Like many post that are going around the BBS about McGrady. Whether or not we get him is another story. If we don't trade Francis we'll be average/good team for years to come. But never really going anywere. Big deal about the play-offs if we just keep getting knocked out every year. Francis can't stay, and at the same time get another "star.". Not with his contract. ___________________ You can call them semantics if you want. The fact is that all of your points about basketball IQ are valid and I am not discounting your position (but you can have all the bball IQ in the world, but without "God given" ability, a player is just another Al Bundy). I believe that in evaluating a player, you have to consider not just basketball IQ, but also athletic ability. To evaluate SF or any other player you must evaluate the the complete skill set, and my point has always been that. The stats are just how that is proved out. Actually, the toilet paper reference was not necessarily what I think we would receive in return, its just that every time I type TP I think of toilet paper (it was a play on the initials), and no that is not a slam on Tony Parker who is a decent player with potential. I am not opposed to trading SF, and I do not have any visions of grandure that we will be able to package our crap to get T-mac, or Kobe, unless CD is the other teams GM. However, I believe that in the event that we keep SF, some other moves must be made. With the right moves, we can win it all overcome the mediocrity that has plaged us over the last few seasons. I think that the Cato and MoT contracts are the real albetross. Those bloated contracts and the EG debacle are what is killing this team.
The semantics part was about this: Talent = ? (This is a term I don't like to use because it comes across too general. I've heard people say that "everyone has talent in the NBA." But it has also been used to describe the "elite" players of the league) Skills = ? (I don't mind using this term. But I use it to relate to learned skills and techniques of the body; shot form, dribble technique, free throws, blocking out, etc... NOT related to the athletic side of things) Athletic ability = ? (Obvious; this can be physically trained, but also can be God given - like Francis) IQ = ? (Ability to learn/adapt; decision-making). Best = ? (A very subjective term; depends on what a team needs). Stats alone = (A tool for player Analysis and efficiency) Stats with on court observation = (The big picture; but also can be subjective because some scouts can see things that others can not) That's what I was talking about. And we were defining each of those terms differently. Now, about Francis. I do not discount his athletic ability. That's one of the main reasons he's made it into the league and all-star. But his IQ is so low that it's a detriment to his over-all play and the team cohesiveness. Does his natural athletic ability make-up for it? Some. But not enough from what he's done the last 5 years. Parker, while not as athletic as SF. He's not a slug. He's not slow. He's very close to SF in speed and quickness. Sure, he can't jump as high as SF. But his IQ, added to his already very good athletic ability makes him a very complete player. Would I build a team exclusivley around Parker? No. But that's part of the team building processes. He's just one part of the puzzle. Francis has been put in a position to lead. He's also been given the max-contract. Doese he have extra-ordinary athletic ability? Absolutely! But does it make up for the low IQ? Not enough. Sure, he has a high talent level. He's *not* void of talent. But for the role he's playing, he just can't afford to be the leader with his low IQ. That’s not what you want in a leader. (And no, it's not Yao either. He seems more comfortable as the 2nd option)
I guess TP did not do so great in the last two games or so?? He is back to his 15-5 usual form against lakers.
no no no . . it is part of his HIGH IQ planned to lull the lakers into sleep then he and his Genius level basketball IQ will enjoy home cooking. ..er .. . will destroy the LAKERS Rocket River
You know, I am Steve's biggest defender against all the hate but after awhile you just have to let it go b/c the majority of people on this board and in Houston purely HATE Steve and want him gone regardless of what he did or does. It's a waste of time trying to argue and discuss Steve b/c there's too much crap being hashed up over and over and over. Steve fans, just relax and whatever happens happens. I am a big Steve supported but love the Rockets and want them to succeed as much as any Rocket fan and if Steve gets traded that's fine cause then we (Steve supporters) will have another team to follow along with the Rockets. I used to defend Steve and get pissed at all the hating but it's not worth it b/c in the end we have no say in the matter, it's up to JVG, CD and Les. Peace.
I believe that deep deep deep beneath the TC, there is a hidden laboratory where the mad scientist, Dr. Les is feverishly working to create an army of CD clones to secretly replace the other GMs in the league so that they too will have a stupid guy running their basketball operations. The mediocrity has just begun. Wait until next season! What? Albatross you say? Why sir, I take issue with your disparaging description of CD's finest and most brilliant pieces of work since the Moochie Norris contract and the stupendous earth-shattering trade for John "Manboobs" Amaechi. I find it simply disgraceful that you and others of your ilk have no true appreciation of the genius that is Carroll Dawson. Begone!
point guards i'd rather have over francis when you look at the overall things(salary, play, etc). 1. heinrich 2. wade 2. parker. Anyone disagree?
Gosh no!! We only wanted Parker when he was playing at that 30/12/5 mark. Now that he's just plain better than Steve, as opposed to being unbelievably better than Steve, I would say "NO WAY!!" Now, Heinrich..... I mean, Ridnour.... I mean, Tinsley.... (The sarcasm is clear, right???) I agree with the points about athletic ability. If you're talking about the 2, 3, 4, or 5 positions, then I do truly agree...but not at the point guard. Just think, at the PG position, you can take a tall guy or short guy who's slow and has no speed, can't jump, has an average jumpshot, avg free throws, low rebounding and plays avg defense, but if he can READ defenses and has those basketball smarts, you may have a kid named Irvin J, Mark J, or John S running your team. Athletic ability is GREAT and is AWESOME to watch on ESPN. However, it doesn't win enough. But when it does, you call it Jordan. Not to many of those Jordan kids running around. His jumping made the highlights, his mind made him the champion. The PG needs to be the mental leader of the team. Steve and mental CAN be used in the same sentence...it's just not that flattering. I like Steve..I would just like him somewhere else. No hate, baby!!
i'm proud Rivaldo2181 that you can let it go. everytime i read a francis Bash thread i just have to reply i can understand when some people say negative things about steve, he isn't perfect (nobody is). then i can keep silent and just let it go. But some threads are to much. And some people just bash so they can bash (Tinsley better then Francis )
look I don't think steve is the greatest point guard , but the players that people bring up parker,wade,Heinrich,ridinour, will no way improve this team, this team would take a step back. This team does not depend on steve francis, to be a great team it needs yao to be a great player to be a great team! A dominate Yao and Francis would make this a legendary team! Of the point Guards I mention above, only wade can make that step. I want the Rockets to be like the lakers not the spurs! The spurs are a contender every year, but the lakers are a dynasty!
