Excuse me. But it was you that was just listing stats and somehow that was supposed to make him "smarter" on the court? Did you watch the any of the games this year? Apparently you chose to ignore the dumb mistakes he made throughout the year. Yet, listing stats is supposed to make it all better? I mean, come on! He still gives up opportunities just as much as he gets.
regardless of how smart YOU percieve him to be, the stats are the stats. As I said before, they are only a guide as to how a player performs and I am willing to concede that Francis does make some stupid plays at times. But in context to this thread about Parker being better than Francis I simply don't see it. You can pick on Francis' biggest weakness and focus on that if you like, but its not reflective of the whole game and the whole package. There are some fans here that won't be happy no matter who we have. We could have parker and Spurs could have Francis and then you would be complaining that Parker doesnt get enough rebounds and Parker is a crap defender and doesnt get enough steals and you'd be praising Steve because he does all these things.
"At times?" Really? I would not be praising Francis, no matter what team he gets traded to. He'd still play clueless. By the way, it's not only me that perceives Francis to be lacking in basketball smarts. What about that thing called "team?" What about how a PG runs the offense? What about how the offense flows better? What about getting the ball to your teammates in the right time for the easy score? What about better continuity? You'd be surprised how Yao's game would improve as well as other role players like JJ and Mobley if we had a "Parker" or "Nash" or "Bibby." Would that be the end of it? Absoultly not. But that's part of team building. And we'd reap the benfits of shoring up one of the most important positions on any team (the PG position). That's why your assessment that "stats are stats" just doesn't hold water. They don't pan out on the court. Only on paper. And please don't confuse "better player" with "main man." Parker should not be the offensive focus, just like Francis should NOT be the offensive focus (we tried that). But Parker is a better *part* of the team that I'd rather have as a PG.
I said that Bremer was more competent than Francis, of course no where near in athletic ability. Just as are a lot of decent guards like Fisher and Bibby (Bibby wasn't rated as high as he is today). That debate was about being including on a list of Top Guards in the league. Francis was excluded from that list. Even from the hybrid list of players like Bobby Jackson and Nick Van Exel.
Spurs evaluate talent in different way Team seeks players willing to sacrifice for success http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4948168/ SANTA MONICA, Calif. - The San Antonio Spurs learned a long time ago, probably back in 1999 when they won their first NBA Championship, that they don't need to jump the highest, run the fastest or flex the biggest muscle to win. Their definition of the word "talent" is different than everybody else's. The day after the Lakers utilized their prodigious talent to rout the Spurs in Game 3 of this second round Western Conference playoff series was an occasion to compare the two teams and wonder how it is they each go about the mission of chasing a championship so different . . . Bruce Bowen, the swingman whose skills require him to spot up for three-pointers and also guard Kobe Bryant without help from teammates, said Monday on the subject of talent, "Isn't good decision-making a talent? I think good judgment is a talent, knowing when to pass up what might be a decent shot because a teammate has a better one. That, to me, is a talent. . . .
Tony Parker is really good. I guess I'd have to see him on another team to see how much of it is playing with Tim Duncan. But I mean there's no way Francis could stop him on defense. You would need somebody like Sprewell, who's doing a good job on bibby. Is he better than Francis? Maybe. The Sonics offered Payton in a trade (now this was 3 years ago when Payton was the second best PG in the game) and the Spurs said no. Better shooter than Francis and a better passer, quicker, and makes better decisions. However, Francis is better in everything else like athleticism, rebounding, etc. Tony Parker is overrated though... if you look at his stats, not only are they underwhelming, they are worse than last year. Yet he shines in the playoffs so people think he's taken the next step.
So when Steve Francis has a very bad season but torches Payton and Fisher in the playoffs being single-covered it proves how good he is. But when Tony Parker torches Payton and Fisher to the point where the Lakers put Kobe on him and start to double him, he's overrated?
The WaPo article covers the athleticism angle - if you consider decision making and other attributes a talent, SF falls short of what a team like the Spurs seek.
I did... "Tony Parker is really good. I guess I'd have to see him on another team to see how much of it is playing with Tim Duncan." "Is he better than Francis? Maybe." "Tony Parker is overrated though... if you look at his stats, not only are they underwhelming, they are worse than last year." With these statements, I'm not sure what you've been "converted" to...
you think parker is very good and better than francis as a PG, and i agree with that assessment. however, people are talking second best PG in the league after Kidd. and that's overrating him. his points are down, steals are down, and FG% is down. sure he emerges in the playoffs, but you need to consistently perform at a star level to be a star in my book.
QUOTE by DavidS He still gives up opportunities (SF) just as much as he gets. That's not how the stats play out, but I guess that when the stats don't play out, it doesn't matter. You can attempt to mitigate the impact of 25 more blocks, 82 more steals, and 55 more assists per game, not to mention the 196 more blocks (all in SF's worst statistical season) but it doesn't work. You are thinking with your heart, and not your head. SF is clearly the better player.
had to be more to it that a str8 up trade salaries etc. . . . . doesn't work cap wise esp at that time Rocket River
Quote by DavidS You take averages to paint a picture. And even then, the stats can be broken down on how they play-out on the court. Then, you also have watch them on the court as well. ___________ I thought that was what an average was, a picture of what you can expect from a player over a specific period, which in this case is a season. Averages are designed to provide an analysis of efficiency, at least in sports, to eliminate the impact of an off night or an exceptional night. So I would say that averages are one of the most valuable tools in evaluating a player’s performance and determining his value. I guess you overlooked the fact that I quantified the differences (although it was done as a multiplication of the averages) as well as using the averages, but alas I guess that negates your point and thus your position. Quote by DavidS Now, the 1.2 TO difference is 98.4 per 82 game season. Yep, that's the difference. Francis average 3.7 for the year which gives him his high TO total. At least you see that! The .7 more assist is negligible. Although 54.7 assist more per season. Look at the totals: Francis: 493 assist Parker: 411 assist Please, spare me on the blocks... (33 vs 7). I'd trade in those blocks for a competent PG in a heart beat! If you want to list something as an substantial advantage, you can list rebounds. This is something that SF has been known to be good at. That statistic is enough to merit notice. Francis ppg has always scored more than Parker. But, Parker plays his position: PG. Francis is not a PG. He's s short SG, that is playing the PG. Couple that with Francis bad FG% it kinda defeats the purpose of SG now doesn't it? It's not always about just points. You have to look at a player's efficiency. Especially at the PG spot. _________________ I guess steals are not a substantial advantage (82 more)??? Hell, that stat alone almost negates the TO difference, the rest is just gravy. I guess that when you add the statistical advantages, net of statistical deficiencies of SF and compare to TP is irrelevant?? What does a player contribute to his team that is how you evaluate a player, not based on some stereo type (prototypical PG). SF is not a true PG, he is also not a true SG, he is a combo guard, kinda like AI without the attitude. This has its advantages and disadvantages, but clearly the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Quote by DavidS Yep. TP does a better job of not turning the ball over. That's the role of the PG. A position that Francis happens to be playing. Did you miss that? As far as "better player." You're definition of "better player," while playing the PG position, is clearly skewed. Move Francis to the SG position. See what happens. Even there he'd be only an average SG. A postion (SG) that Mobley is better at. To make matters worse, Francis would be at the top of the list in TOs again. It wouldn't matter. I mean, Mobley may shoot questionable shots. But at least he's not as dumb as Francis. _______________ SF is a combo guard , not a true PG, see above. If you move to the SG, he will still be one of the best guards in the league. His To’s will go down, and his FG percent will go up as he will not be handling the ball as much and his shots will be more of the Mobley variety (wide open) as compare to many of his other shots. Note that Mobley and JJ benefit dramatically from SF’s penetration and kickouts. Besides, I noticed that this year when SF was at the 2 and Jackson/Wilkes were at the 1, SF did a pretty good job (I heard a commentator or two both Rockets and ABC/ESPN saying that). Quote by DavidS For all SF's rebounds and steals. He'd still negates much of the effectiveness those stats by turning the ball over. Whatever he gains, he'll lose on the other end. So spare me the "SF has more opportunities." He gives away his opportunities. Plus, he's a bad shooter. I mean, if all you want is a shooting guard why waste you time with Francis? T-Mac could do a hell of a lot better. __________________________ Negate would be eliminating the impact. Again, that does not statistically play out. SF has almost twice as many rebounds as TO’s, not to mention the 82 steal differential. In order to use negate, the statistical relationship would have to be reversed. And again, that does not even take into account all of the other statistical advantages of SF. Actually, you also said he is a bad shooter?? He shot at a 40% clip in 2003, that’s not bad, but it could be better. Additionally, note that he is 43.1% for his career and only 1.6% worse than TP, including this bad year. Also note that for his career, he is a better 3PT shooter than TP by 2.1%, including this poor shooting year. I also attribute a portion of SF’s poor shooting year to his attempting to do what Van Gundy asked him to do, and that is play D which Rudy T never asked him to do (and I know, there is still room for improvement, but you can’t deny that he improved in this category over the year). Quote by DavidS That's right. But you have to actually watch the game in order to see this. Else you would never know that many of SF TO *are* unforced. Unforced turnovers are just counted as TO. They are not tied to steals. ______________________ The whole point of a TO is that it is unforced, it’s a mistake, don’t you get it?? Errr I guess you would have to watch the game to know that??? I noticed the second point, I had a typo (Unforced turnovers are steals) that should have read forced turnovers are steals. There is no such thing as a differential between forced and unforced TO’s, the point is that they are all unforced that is why they are a turnover. If you throw the ball into the 3rd row, it’s a TO regardless whether someone is guarding you closely or not, same goes with dribbling off of your foot (which seems to be your favorite example of an SF TO, and for which I am sure TP has done in his short career).
Quote by DavidS The .7 more assist is negligible. Although 54.7 assist more per season. Look at the totals: Francis: 493 assist Parker: 411 assist ___________________ It appears that I was wrong, it looks like an 82 assist advantage for SF, my bad.
