gr81 -- i think seattle is probably a pretty comparable example. Given, they're playing great right now...but it's not as if they're doing it with a significant payroll. They're payroll is pretty mediocre, and while they're winning, it's more a rarity than anything else. They have been competitive in what has probably been the worst division in baseball for a while now. But their young talent will eventually grow old, demand more money than Seattle can pay, and we'll see if they can replace it. I doubt it...this is not a franchise with a very good history...it's just recently done well. As for support being an indicator...it's not! Sure, attendance money helps...but the big difference between mid market and big market teams is TV revenue and/or the relationship between the team and the media outlets they play on. A great example is the SuperStation in Atlanta. Take that away, and they're in roughly the same financial position as the Astros with a comparable market size. But with it they're able to go out and buy the players they need to push them over the top. The Astros simply can not do that....that's a revenue source unavailable to them. The Yankees make more in just media dollars than some small market teams make with all their revenue streams combined! Until that's "fixed" they will always have a significant competitive advantage. Believe it or not, Clevland is a bigger media market than Houston and that attributed to their success. But Cleveland's success isn't perpetual either. Their talent through the 90's was mostly home-grown...they signed them all to long-term contracts as youngsters allowing them to avoid an Expo-like exodus. Houston and Seattle will never be big market clubs under the current agreements. Hopefully all that will change one day and we'll see some significant revenue sharing (and maybe even a cap!) that will allow teams to compete on a more even playing field. ------------------
Great points Max, no doubt about it. I think ATl and Houston are very close in market size, one is #10, the other #11. However, I think Cleveland is definitely a smaller market then Houston. What about Baltimore ? I guess DC could be added to their market and that is why their payroll is so high. Here are the markets that I know are larger then Houston. NYC Chicago LA San Fran/Oakland Detroit Philly Dallas Boston Atl (maybe not, but with TBS, they're really in the top 5) Washington DC The lowest I have ever seen Houston ranked is 11th, and I suspect they may even be tenth. So, I don't think Cleveland is larger then H-town, though it prolly isn't much smaller. I'm surprised Miami isn't on that list ???? Also, if you guys will remember during realignment, he said that he would want Houston in it's division because it is a large market and he didn't want to be in a division without one. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
Now that I think about it, I would have rather kept Hampton last season even if he was going to leave, because we have almost nothing to show from that trade. Octavio Dotel is a poor starter/decent reliever, and Roger Cedeno(who was supposed to be the perfect CF for Enron) is gone in a trade that got us an injured reliever, another avg reliever, and a decent catcher in Ausmus. Larry Dierker may be seeing his last days this summer coaching for the Stros. I have a feeling that if this team doesn't make the playoffs or get awfully close than he will be gone. Felipe Alou would be a great replacement though...and then we'd be sure to have Mo Alou stay on the team. What kind of manager would trade or let his own son walk . Hopefully the Stros will be in contention every now and then, so we don't have to suffer through decades of struggle such as the Cubs have done. If they are not in contention, then I pretty much don't watch baseball at all, because I can't stand watching the big market teams(NY) dominate nearly every year. MLB seriously needs to get some kind of salary cap to even things out. I feel sorry for teams like the Twins, who may have 1 or 2 good years, but when time comes to re-sign their players they don't have enough money and can't keep the club together. Oh well, thats baseball for you. Just a little rambling of my thoughts... ------------------ Now saw off...there's nothing to see here.
As long as we have an owner that won't cough up the cash, this team will suck for many years to come. We have one of the top 10 team salaries in baseball. If that's not good enough to win, something's wrong with baseball, not the owner. From 1994-99, I think we were only behind Atlanta and the Yankees for overall best W-L record. In 1998, we won 100+ games and had the one team in baseball that people thought might be able to defeat the 115-game-winning Yankees. We've had a bad 1 1/2 years, but otherwise, we've been a pretty good team. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
Getting eliminated in first round of the playoffs can only last for so long. We're probably the best team in baseball to not have any postseason success in the league also. The Yankees and Braves at least have championships. I will admit that he is starting to pay his players a little more, evidence being in the Hidalgo and Bagwell signings. It's a too little too late for me though. ------------------ They're loud, they're obnoxious and proud, They are conscious but don't forget that theeeey're your future, These kids are accused for all the violence, You can't even keep them silent, You...thought you had...all the answers...
BGM: Shann's right about the winning % thing. Rob Neyer once did a per dollar analysis of baseball, and found that the Astros got the second most bang-for-their-buck out of all Major League teams. This makes me wonder how much better they really would have been with a larger payroll. After all, there's a point when your team can't really do a whole lot mroe even with money. 98 was like that, imo... how could that team really have improved? They had great hitters and very good pitchers. They were the best team in baseball, and ran into a hot San Diego squad. No shame in that. The Astros aren't in a large enough market to ever be a perennial contender. but they've won a fair amount and been competitive. Hopefully, they should have a shot at winning a World Series every 5 years or so. That's enough for me . ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
Getting eliminated in first round of the playoffs can only last for so long. I agree -- I just think the players have to shoulder the blame for those losses. In '97, we were expected to lose. No big deal. '98 and '99 were huge disappointments in my mind, but ownership and management did their share, in my opinion. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
gr81 -- I'm not certain, but I've heard it said that Cleveland's media market is larger than ours. I've never been to Cleveland so I have no idea past what I've heard. ------------------
A certain ex-manager of the Expos comes to mind. Although it would be funny for it to happen twice. ------------------ Bingbong was set up, led to an untimely death in the prime of his life for no other reason than pure malice. Things like that do not go unavenged. Sometimes it spills out onto the field of play.
