To be considered a better player than Michael Jordan

Any stat that says Shaq is better defensively than Dream and Robinson should be mocked relentlessly.

It's not about what you have to do, it's what you can do. Russell had little-to-no offensive moves. His crap FG% (career .440) was beyond embarrassing for a center and his career 56 FT% was also horrible. His offense was clearly subpar. Having good offensive teammates could've also helped his stats. If BOS needed his increased offense, his defense likely suffers due to using more energy to score.

Magic and Bird may've made their teammates better, but that doesn't mean MJ didn't make his better. Jordan was a great leader and has plenty game-winning plays in which he passed to an open player.

Not being "that great of a rebounder" isn't a flaw for a guard. Regardless, Jordan was a very good rebounder. His career numbers reflect it. Not sure why you even brought that up TBH.

How did Iverson do more with less? You mean his Finals run where PHI advanced through arguably the worst conference in NBA history? A very good defensive team in which Allen was the only weak defender? LOL. PHI also had one the greatest coaches in basketball history. during that run. Regardless, one season of having a "good" run (no ring, mind you) doesn't equate to doing more with less, especially compared to Dream.

 

No player is perfect, unless he is Jesus Christ how can someone just have 1 flaw in their entire game? This is all about the Nike Space Jam Kool-Aid generation confusing MJ dunking with MJ the actual player.

If MJ was so amazing how come he didn't do anything on his own for his first 7 years in the league? A lot of his "stats" that people talk about happened because he had a ridiculously dominant team and this allowed him to be more efficient with his game, Hakeem was on his own defending the other team's best player and scoring all the important baskets. MJ had Rodman and Pippen picking up the slack defensively and had snipers like Kukoc and Kerr he can always hand off to offensively. Yes he probably guarded like hell during the last minute of the game but the other 47 mins you had the Jordanners getting up on all of the opponent's mugs.

Like the other poster said, with MJ people always change the goal posts. LBJ did more with less than MJ, he took a Cleveland team to the Finals by himself and he won a ring with both Wade and Bosh scoring 10 pts combined. But wait he doesn't have 6 rings, can't be the GOAT Russell had 11 rings though, twice what MJ had! Oh wait he sucks offensively can't be the GOAT Ok then, Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double, WIlt Chamberlain scored 100 pts a game and then you had Magic who could play both pg or C and won titles as both. Oh wait, X, Y and Z. Even Hakeem who is way better individually than MJ gets crapped on, somehow it's his fault MJ couldn't hack it anymore and quit to play baseball. Yep, instead of blaming MJ who ran away for 2 years or whatever somehow it's Hakeem's fault because he won while MJ was gone. Talk about blaming the victim! Also, like what Tinman keeps pointing out MJ was already back during the 2nd peat, it's just they got elminated before they reached the Finals.

Maybe I'm sounding like a hater but the reality is I don't get the hero worship around the guy. He is an extreme version of Kobe, he won rings sure but there are also multiple reports of him being a horrible teammate and inspiring fear around his team. If MJ was born in today's era nobody would call him goat, they'd be appalled at his alleged racism (ask Chamillionaire) and bully boy tactics like punching a rookie in the mouth just caused he dunked over him in practice.

Anyway this opinion 0f mine seems to still be in the minority now but I think the public opinion on MJ is starting to wane, I think it's only a matter of time before MJ mania finally comes to an end lol.

 

How can someone with a flaw be perfect? Not sure what your point was there.

Not sure what your definition of nothing is, but in MJ's 6 years, CHI made the postseason every year including 2 CFs and won series as an underdog. Bulls had to go through dynasty-type squads like BOS and DET in the process.

You sound ignorant. MJ had already accumulated awesome stats and feats before winning championships. Scoring titles, DPOY, and ridiculous stats like averaging 30/8/8 and 1.5+ blks (by a guard) for an entire seasons. He was also already highly efficient posting 30+ PER and 60%+ TS multiple seasons. Get educated before speaking on things you seem to know nothing about.

BTW, in the midst of your anger, you must've missed my statement regarding Hakeem after the very next line you bolded. Hakeem equals beast.

Nobody is changing goals. They're just taking the totality of one's career. Stats, rings, feats, lead dog... everything matters. One player might have a particular aspect over another player, but it's still the totality of their careers.

You don't understand because you are a hater. Unlike Kobe, players mostly wanted to play with MJ and Jordan has friends. As for Chammillionaire and racism... it wasn't about race, it was about gender. Mike was taking pictures with girls that day. LMAO. You saw that video and really thought it was about race? Yeah, you're a hater.

btw- Like Iverson, LeBron gets credit for making the Finals with subpar teammates, but 1) they lost and 2) those 2 years the EC was the worst ever.

 

Great retort to rosolian's horrible post.

 

You realize that the lower the numeral value of your DRTG, the better you are? 101 is actually just above average defense, anything less than 100 is very good.

 

With all due respect, your "point" doesn't stand up to scrutiny, not even close. The Rockets would have defeated the Lakers in the WC Finals that year whether Sampson had made The Shot or not. We were ahead 3-1. We were simply crushing the defending champions. They had no answer for Hakeem. None. With Sampson and the rest of a deep team, the Lakers were going down. Heck, if Lucas hadn't been tossed from the league earlier in the season, I think the Lakers would have been swept. My opinion, naturally, but I watched that series. The Rockets were a very young team on the verge of greatness. Los Angeles found that out the hard way.

 

Haha... okay, got myself on that one.

Neither Duncan nor Robinson were better defensively than Hakeem though.

The fact Timmy played against inferior big probably helps him.

Mr Robinson is more arguable.


It's definitely a suspect stat if it says MJ wasn't a beast.

 

I presume it also has something to do with the system the player is in as well. That would explain Robinson/Duncan/Sabonis having a better career DRTG than Hakeem. Just looked up an elite perimeter defender Jimmy Butler and his DRTG is pretty much the same as MJ's. So I guess the numeral values of perimeter players DRTGs are usually higher.

 

First of all, the GOAT discussion is always about popular opinion because there is no formula that definitely proves who it is. The conversation always includes fans who prop up the players they like the most and, in their opinion has accomplished the most. Secondly, it is unfair to ride off Kobe's first three titles as a tag along with Shaq. If you watch any of those playoff runs (many available on NBATV)...you will notice that Kobe was a big part of all of those titles. In fact, the second and third titles could have been a toss up on Playoff MVP. Shaq and Kobe were the greatest duo in NBA history in my opinion and those Lakers teams that won three in a row with those two were among the greatest in NBA history. So that itself puts Kobe in the conversation as GOAT. Additionally, his 81 point game vs the Raptors in 2006, to me, is more impressive than Wilt scoring 100 against a bunch of short white guys. Kobe actually dropped 51 points in the second half after the Lakers were down 14 at halftime. If the Lakers lost that game, the haters can bring that up, but they in fact won.