To be considered a better player than Michael Jordan

A lot of the people who watched MJ and are unwilling to crown Kobe or Lebron as being better than him are also subconsciously trying to defend, what they define as, "their time". So although you're right about most people who have watched NBA from the 80s maintaining that Jordan is the GOAT, there's a bit of a psychological reason to that.

I never saw Jordan play. I was born in 96 so I barely even remember Stevie Franchise play. But it's blatantly obvious that people put Michael on this pedestal as if no one can EVER be as good as him. Sorry, but people always think someone is the greatest, and someone else comes along and changes the narrative.
Jordan was the amazing balance of athleticism, skill, and competitiveness. But even I know, he was unsuccessful in the postseason for a really long time. until he finally got a team that was capable of supporting him. Hell that team won 50+ games with Scottie leading the way. His first 7 years can't just be ignored when discussing who was the greatest of all time. Even Lebron got his sorry ass team to the Finals in 2007, as a 22 year old.

 

Assuming your box score guy is also considered a good teammate, then yes, should be obvious. That's something like a 40 PER. Jordan's great but that statline is the equivalent of taking Super Westbrook from last season, and sustaining that craziness for a ridiculous 20 seasons while picking up more rings than Mike.

No one will ever put of that statline for multiple years, much less after factoring in decline and rookiedom, but the real question is "is there a line". Yes. Of course there's a line where Jordan can be surpassed.

 

Lebron's stat lines are pretty close to MJs when you factor in pace etc. Its just that 6 rings thing.

 

Which is pretty big IMHO.
I am not a huge Jordan fan. I do not think it is clear he is the GOAT. There are enough legends who also make a strong case. But for me the number of rings won as the best player of the team is huge in this conversation. Especially when you have great teams.

I think Lebron is a great player. He is the best player since Shaq (Although Duncan can also make a strong case). But he is not on Jordans level. I would not rate him top 10 all time (but depending on the rest of his career he could get there).

 

People of different era will say different things.
Heck if you ask kids now, they will say Kobe or Lebron is the GOAT.

Anyway its always a personal opinion. As for my opinion, Hakeem is the greatest of all time. Put Hakeem in any of the Bulls team, Bulls will still win 6 rings. Put Jordan in Rox, Rox might never win any championship.

 

I consider Russell better than Jordan. Basketball is a team sport, a lot of people seem to forget that. 11 in 13 (lost a year in the finals, cause Russell was injured)

 

To begin, the GOAT should not flop.

 

Better in a respective era does not mean better overall.

 

Jordan's stats were incredible and you put that next to the fact that he was SUPER IMPORTANT to the NBA and he came pre ESPN/sports round the clock to point out the flaws in his game/lifestyle. Then ALSO the Jordan stories will get more exaggerated, which will make him look even better and better.

I doubt anyone will ever be considered better than he was.

 

I agree, but I'd also say that by that logic, the "best" player from the most recent new generation is the "best of all time." It's pretty obvious the level of talent and skill from players is increasing with each generation, similar principle to the Flynn effect. You can tell by stats, and even the eye test. People use a players "dominance" of their era as their measuring stick, so Russell, with the tools available to him, made the biggest impact, in terms of winning,leadership and being a good teammate.

So to say better in one era does not mean better overall, I'd agree, but then I would also reason that MJ would not be nearly as dominant in this era, because of the increased skill level overall by the league, and thus should not be crowned the best overall.

But we have to go by what they did when they played.

Bill's Quick Resume: 5 MVPs, 11 rings in 13 years, won High School Championship, NCAA (x2), won NBA rings as a player and player/coach.

MJ can't touch Bill.

People value scoring too much.

 

Yeah, Jordan has become a Legend, an undefeatable player with no weaknesses. He was the icon that helped the NBA explode. Even if a better player comes along, people will point to something Jordan has that that player doesn't: Rings, MVPs, Scoring titles...whatever

No one will be considered better than Jordan, as the myth has already been cemented. This is similar to Ali, who, those who are not familiar with boxing, will say is best boxer ever.

But I think if I was choosing a player in a Vacuum, where all players are afforded the same training and health practices at a young and early age with equal basketball knowledge (Each generation takes from the past), I'd choose Russell over Jordan

 

Who is the most talented NBA player ever?



Even with the NFL argument, the argument about the best QB ever. I've never seen anyone ask who is the most talented QB of all time? I bet the answer is different.

 

Anthony Davis has a legitimate chance, with his skill level and natural ability, he's already unstoppable, but he would have no weaknesses in his game once he will shoot 37+% off his threes and he will do it in the next three seasons

 

It's very difficult to e evaluate, because MJ was an amazing media hype machine and really new how to elevate his brand.

Purely on the court, I don't think it would be difficult to find someone better than MJ over the next 40 years or so. However, when it comes down to history/legacy/etc, it would take so much more to be considered better than MJ when that player's career is said and done. A lot of MJ's greatness is based on the legend/myth that surrounds him. Can someone ever duplicate this? LBJ took the NBA by storm, but still isn't the massive 1-man juggernaut face of the NBA every season. It always changes from him Durant and Curry. Lebron is still the greatest of these 3 players, but doesn't change the way the media and public view him.

 

With Jordan, it's not that much about the individual stats IMO. But rather, it's about two factors.

First is his team's sheer dominance during an extended period of time. Two three-peats in a decade, and the drama of obtaining the second three-peat after "un-retiring." No other star had so much b-ball success and longevity in the modern era.

Second is his huge influence on popularizing the sport. Like Hulk Hogan with wrestling, Jordan's name became synonymous with the sport of basketball, with millions of kids wanting to "Be Like Mike." It was on a scale that is unimaginable now, as mass media is much more fractured and compartmentalized today.

So the combination of these two factors - basketball longevity coupled with extraordinary mass-market appeal - is what makes Jordan such a legendary figure. Because of this, I can't see any one superstar today doing what Jordan able to achieve in the 1980s and '90s.

 

If we're talking about longevity and dominance then it should be Russell no questiom about it. Which is longer 11 or 6 spread over 8 years? Hmmmmm....the modern era qualification is really funny too, 1980 is not modern its the difference between Russell's era to MJ's era. So if you think Russell era is ancient then MJs era is also already ancient nowadays.

All MJ really has to be GOAT is media hype thanks to Gatorade, Nike and Space Jam. Fortunately the younger gen didnt grow up watching MJ dunk alongside bugs bunny and so are immune to the media brainwashing. Maybe I'm sounding like a hater, but the reality is how can you be the GOAT if you're only the 2nd best guy in your draft class? If Dream and MJ switched places Dream would have 8 rings MJ would have 0 so when people talk about MJs dominance it always makes me face palm because people really mean the Bull's dominance, MJ by himself didnt do anything for 7 years.

 

Yeah I can totally agree with that. But as a basketball player, we'll have another player of Jordan's quality over the next decade or so.

 

No we won't. Especially not in the next decade or so. Let's see if someone can even get to Lebron or Kobe's level first. MJ is a once in a lifetime player.

 

I was playing high school ball during Michael Jordan's run at his first three titles so you could say I grew up during the Jordan era. What I remember was that for the first 6 or 7 years of his career, most sportswriters were calling Jordan a ball hog and someone who will never win an NBA title. In comparison to Magic and Larry, Michael was just a circus side show. Once the titles came, everything turned around and he was primed to be the face of advertising for not only the NBA but sports in general.

To me, Kobe is the closest thing to Michael Jordan post Michael Michael Jordan, but what actually is Kobe's kryptonite is that he won 3 titles relatively quickly in his career and never had to face the early criticism. Instead, he faced later criticism that he couldn't win without Shaq which drove him to eventually win two more with Gasol, but that puts him at a lot of NBA miles on his body and a second team rebuild that will make things unlikely for him to catch the 6 rings that MJ has. If the Lakers won the Finals vs the Pistons and also the first meeting with Boston as they should have being that they were favored both series, Kobe would have 7 rings and be a legitimate GOAT in the eyes of most sportswriters. In fact, in China, the popular opinion is that Kobe is the greatest ever because MJ was a bit ahead of the massive NBA boom there. MJ also didn't play in the era of social media. There would be a lot more scrutiny on his mistakes, bonehead plays, and controversy over his gambling issues if that was the case and also all the haters would be out in force. Kobe is definitely a victim of social media hate. If you are part of the 50% of NBA fans that are Lakers fans, then he's a god, if you are part of the other 50% that hates the Lakers, then there are all sorts of reasons why he is overrated. Hell, there are people on this forum that say that Jeremy Lin is a better player than Kobe.

Lebron can also easily surpass Michael as the GOAT but his issue is ring count and time is running out. He only has 2 and age is starting to creep around the corner. I mean, he's still young, but he's got a lot of miles like Kobe. What people overlook is that Kobe and Lebron are a lot older than their age because both have played since 18 and both have the majority of the seasons go deep into the playoffs. My guess is that Lebron will not get to 6 rings and that is why he will not be GOAT.

Besides Kobe and Lebron, there's no reason why someone down the road doesn't unseat Michael though. For Michael to unseat Magic and Larry was quite a feat actually and it really took the 6 rings to surpass Magic's 5 to do it. The NBA is not Major League baseball. It is a sport for people with short attention spans and little patience and thus players of the past will fall by the wayside in the span of one single generation. Kids growing up right now will not even know or care about Michael Jordan by the time they are adults.

 

Bill Russell is definitely the choice as greatest ever if we are talking about titles being he won 11 in his 13 year career, but he also happened to win these titles with the likes of Bob Cousy, Tommy Heinsohn, John Havlicek, KC Jones, Bill Sharmon, and Frank Ramsey. Not to take away from Russell, but if chosing the GOAT based on dominance vs the generation they played in, I'd say Wilt Chamberlain is a no brainer. First of all, if you look at his stats, it looks like something out of a video game. In his career, he averaged 30.1 PPG and 22.9 RPG. And in 1961, he averaged 50.4 PPG and 25.7 RPG. If he was on the Celtics during the Russell years, he would have won 13 titles in 13 years.