Arent you extrapolating Nash's good part of his career over his career? I am astonished by the double standard people are willing to take for Nash.
There are two sides on a basketball game, the offensive side, and the defensive side. I have never seen anyone defend like Dennis Rodman. I have seen dozens of players score better than Reggie Miller. It's a 50/50 thing, always has been.
OK, true. But Reggie never destroyed a team like Rodman did in San Antonio. Reggie played more (sic) D than Dennis did O. Rodman was 'saved' the strength of personality of MJ.
That's just stereotyping gone mad. Rodman was the facilitator of Chicago's offense from 1995-98. Meaning, the ball went to him in the apex of the Triangle and the cutters worked off of him. He was huge in that offense. In his last season with Chicago he averaged an assist on 29.3 percent of the possessions he took part in. For comparison's sake, that mark would rank him at 17th in the NBA this year in assist ratio, right behind Chris Paul. CHRIS PAUL. Now, compare that to someone who teams regularly keyed their offense to attack -- Reggie Miller. Rodman ain't Ben Wallace.
Magic was not dirty (disputing the: he wasn't as dirty comment). Thomas was dirty and enjoyed the 'safety' of the punks with whom he played (dirty with). Stockton was the choir boy of dirty players.
Rodman did keep the ball moving and the shooters hit their shots. But stereotyping gone mad? I coulda guarded him because he was not going to participate in any bucketing save rebounding.
Decide like this: Would Nash be 1st, 2nd, 3rd team All-NBA 20 years ago? Nope. What about 15 years ago? Nope. Ten years ago? Probably not. But maybe. Now, his two MVP's? Well, hello? How many does Dream have? He has only one. Thats because during his era he had to compete against: Barkley Jordan Stockton Malone Robinson Ewing Shaq Payton Drexler Wilkins Bird Magic Isiah O my God! Look at all the votes year in and year out he had to compete for! All of these players are in the greatest 50 if I am not mistaken. Nash has the benefit of playing when the league is weak in great talent. You mean to tell me that if he wins 3 MVP's he is better than any of the players I just listed? I don't think so at all. His MVP's are hollow to me.
There are four 1s on your list - and Nash compares favorably to all but Magic. Is he better than the other three? Maybe, maybe not but he is in the conversation with them. (BTW - I believe GP was yops for several years.)
There's more than 2 sides, as anyone who has played on a team knows. As the third player or less, he was very good. As the top two or more, he was abysmal. Furthermore, if it's a 50/50 thing, why aren't Larry Smith, Michael Cage, Truck Robinson, and Buck Williams in the Top 60? It's 50 + 50 + Team for someone in the Top 60. If you are at 50, you're a role player and that's what Rodman was. By the way, Rodman's assist average in 1998 works out to 2.875 per game... if you take it out ot 40 minutes, it comes in at 3.2, so I'll be generous and round it to 3 apg. Using your percentage stat, that means he was only involved in 9-10 set plays per game! Damn, that Phil Jackson is one stupid coach not recognizing that the ball needed to be in Rodman's hands more as he could be the focus and set up MJ and Pippen and Harper. They were lucky they won those three championships. Rodman may not be Ben Wallace, but he only averaged double figures once in his career (11.6 with the Pistons), never averaged more than 0.9 blocks per game (0.6 career), shot 58% from the line, and his highest PER was 17.4, which puts him in the category of... 3rd Banana. His career PER is 14.6 which is below the average of 15. (http://www.alleyoop.com/prates.shtm) I should also note his playoff averages are 6.4 ppg and 9.9 rpg. Not bad on the RBs, but still, hardly Top 60 worthy.
Rodman is the greatest rebounder in the history of the game, and one of the greatest defenders and all-out hustlers as well. He's a top 50 player, not just top 60.
Comparing Rodman's defense with guys like Cage, Mr. Mean, and Williams ... I mean, it's not even worth getting into. Any of those guys ever guard a point guard? Come on. You're better than that. Thanks for not mentioning Jamie Feick. Your sarcasm aside, go back and look at the Bulls tapes. The offense ran through that apex. Deduce what you want from not watching, but needless to say, Rodman's offense is far superior to Reggie Miller's defense, which was someone's original point. And Hollinger himself will tell you that PER does little to reflect defensive aptitude. That's why he tried to develop a defensive PER in his 05 and 06 books, but passed last year, because it's too hard to cobble together. Check Bruce Bowen's PER from year to year to see what I mean -- it's around 8 and 9. The fact that Rodman doubled it ... there you go. Has anyone on this board seen a more versatile and devestating defender?
Saving you some trouble, for when they come roaring back: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/RbR_career.html Michael Cage is 53rd.
Yeah, "devestating" probably isn't the right word, because Russell was probably even better than that. But the versatility was my original point from back in February.
This is another good one: Top Rebound-Rates for a Season since 1978 Rodman dominates the list -- top 7 seasons all by himself. He was to rebounding what Jordan was to scoring. That he did it with a SF's body makes it all the more impressive.
Uh, that would be Wilt. Or Russell. Or Unseld. Or Malone. How good a "Rodman" could Hakeem have been if he didn't have to carry the offensive load? As it is, Rodman is not competitive in any defensive category except rebounds and the offensive side is a joke. I'll agree that he was a good D player, though he flopped too much for my taste. He also hustled when he wanted to... that he didn't want to at times is a tally for my side of the ledger. "Bush: Great President? Or Greatest President?"
And if the NBA had kept blocks as stats in the 60s ... Or if Barkley only had to rebound ... Or if Jordan was obssesed with assists and banking in free throws ... Why the "what-ifs?" Nobody's picking Dennis over Hakeem overall, but the fact remains: per the rebounds available, nobody pulled in more than Dennis Rodman. More than Wilt, more than Russell, more than Unseld, and more than Malone. And more than Moses Malone (after reading your first post, I'm assuming you meant "Jeff.")
Edit: Well, I basically just repeated what Kelly said above. No, it wouldn't. Rodman grabbed a higher percentage of the missed shots while on the court than anyone in league history. To me, that's synonymous with being the best rebounder. It doesn't matter. We're not talking about hypotheticals. Maybe if Jordan focused all his efforts on improve his outside shot, he would have been a greater jump shooter than Larry Bird. Well, he didn't so who cares?
My point is not that Rodman was not a good rebounder... he was. He just isn't a Top 60 player. Looking at the page for rebound rates, the only HOFer in the Top 30 is Moses Malone... maybe Kemp at 30. Rebound rates are not a primary determinant of the Top 60, at least in my book, and if that's all you've got, then you have a role player, albeit a good one. And that's the point I was trying to make with Truck and all those guys... they all did a couple of things well, but not all the things that makes one a Top 60 guy.
