Yes, it is not an exact science and it is not purely objective. I wasn't saying it is. But Blake said it is objective. That was why I was making my posts. All his analysis/arguemnts can only be used as some reference with certain value/credit but not as rock solid proof.
Thats true, the most credit should go to the person who puts the ball in the basket. An earlier point that I made was that if you're going to scrutinize each play looking for things like "hockey assists" where he helps his team, you should be objective enough to look for plays where his actions are detrimental to the team (i.e. getting back late on defense) And if i assign credit based on predetermined criteria (i.e. directness/indirectness), its not arbitrary.
Um I believe he said that already, he did go through each defensive play and found 4 or so that were purely his own mistakes non hustle or making the wrong defensive choice etc.....IF you want you can go and through each defensive play yourself and make another review. Im happy to say that I didn't have too much problem with his defence. You are being purely objective when you say, "how many times have you seen him walk back late on defence". That is just your impression, just like the impression that T-mac only jacks up shots that are bad. Until you do a useful analysis like this then that comment bears no meaning. Blake has clearly bothered to analyse his defence. Im satisfied with this results listing.
So you're reiterating things that I've said and asking me if I understand them. For future reference, the answer is always "yes". If I claim I didnt say it and you think I did, please quote me. Dont just say "that is exactly what you said" and think that is enough evidence. And in his original criteria, OP did not mention a rating for tmac when he drives to the hole and misses a contested shot (no foul). So please dont say "OP clearly said..." And in any case, the very best rating this scenario should get would be a neutral. If missing a wide open jumper is a neutral, this should be as well. Both events happen as a result of a well-executed offense. What logic is there to rate this ahead of missing a wide open jumper? You only see irony in my statement b/c you dont understand the points I'm trying to convey. Either that or you havent fully read my posts. So you're making excuses for tmac's laziness. I'm glad you condone it when players dont hustle. Why should he wait for Yao to catch up? If my superstar wingman is trying to keep pace with my 7'5 center, then my team has a big problem. Because this year, we are trying to implement the motion offense which is almost the exact opposite of Gundyball. We havent even become adept at running the motion offense and tmac is reverting back to gundyball. We should either focus on the motion offense or focus on gundyball. When we meet halfway, we'll beat the lesser teams but we'll lose to the elite teams. Can you name 5 jump shooters who pull up for contested 18 ft fadeaways? I can only think of Kobe and maybe baron davis. But its not the same with them. They create separation by using fakes. It usually seems like they're in control of their bodies. On the other hand, tmac tries to create separation by jumping as high as he can, fading away, and trying to outhang his opponent. It looks very awkward, and everytime he does it, it makes me think of his last back injury where he tweaked something after landing untouched. Btw, I have never seen alston do this.
Of course, and Blake pointed out some of those bad defensive plays as well. My "predetermined criteria" could be that whenever Battier is on the court, he gets credit for every play. Is that not arbitrary?
reread the first post he says he watched each defensive play and gave 4 of them bad. Others had either a commendable effort or a good effort. If you want to analyse and describe each play feel free to do so. But it appears he has considered each defensive play as well, even describing the four bad plays in question. Once again i note that it is clear that you have a bias to say that he walks back. Im not saying he doesn't do that in games, but his defence is not as horrible as you make it sound. Give Blake credit where he did analyse. I can name 5 jump shooters that shoot contested shots Vince Carter Kobe Bryant Stephen Jackson Jamal Crawford Ben Gordon Joe Johnson Paul Pierce Gilbert Arenas Michael Redd do you need me to go on? T-mac creates seperation with the pump fake as well. He also has the elevation to seperate. Lets not mention Kobe consistently just isolates and takes a jumper with no pump fake. So do many of the players above. Fact of the matter is they are good jumpshooters who can nail a shot with a hand in their face. That is fact. I consider them taking a shot as part of their job. Its bad only when they jack up a shot with absolutly no rebounders what so ever, which T-mac does from time to time.
If thats what you choose as your "predetermined criteria", then no, its not arbitrary. Being arbitrary is when you rate each event using your own opinion/judgement. If you have a predetermined criteria (regardless of what it is) that you use to judge all events, then by definition, it is not arbitrary.
Well, I dont have the game recorded anywhere, so I cant analyze it. And since I dont recall all the defensive plays, i'm in no position to refute his defensive analysis. So I'll stick to the offense. You say I have a bias b/c I point out he walks back at times. And then you agree with me. Do you consider yourself biased? Yes, I would like you to continue. Except this time, make your list according to my criteria. 18 ft contested fadeaways. Out of your list, only Kobe qualifies. I'm not so sure he has the elevation anymore to create the separation he needs. And his pump fake is generally used to get a foul or to drive. Its not used to facilitate his fadeaway jumper. Thats fine. If tmac were as reliable as kobe, no one would be complaining. Also, a good deal of kobe isolation plays are used for posting up. he may not use a pump fake, but he does use head and body fakes to create separation. its remniscent of what jordan used to do in the later part of this career. I think the degree of difficulty of Tmac's fadeaway 18 ft jumper is much higher than a regular jumpshot with a hand in the face. Thats why I asked you to name players who shoot these fadeaways.
I never said he walked back lazy. I said im not saying he doesn't do it. I never agreed with you. In fact I personally disagree but I don't think my own opinion counts for anything in the reasons your stating. Since there is no analysis done on the defensive end with the exception of Blakes im going to go with those. I personally don't remember T-mac ever running back that lazy. His defence has alway average not horrible ala Yao against Bogut in the Bucks game. Im just going to stick with Blakes defensive analysis as well, since he obviously bothered to watch. There is listed 4 bad plays. Every other defensive play im going to call it neutral except for the two steals and single block he got. So really from the defensive end its 4 bad plays, all the rest neutral, and 3 good plays. Realistically thats an average defensive effort from a NBA player be it superstar or not. You obviously don't watch those players very much do you? I don't feel Mcgrady does alot of fadeaways. He takes alot of contested jumpers. But fadeaways not really. Its a small percentage. Once again this is perception you aren't right and neither am I cause neither of us have hard stats. The players i listed above all take many contested shots and that is a fact. Kobe is not consistent. He takes a high volume of shots. When there are multiple scorers around him (i.e when bynum was in) he is consistent and thats cause his not taking as many contested shots. Last season he averaged the leagues highest on a ridiculous amount of FGA. T-mac has done a similar FGA attempts, but none of those seasons came as a Rocket.
You are conveniently disregarding the whole paragraph I wrote on the "Hockey Assist." The hockey assist begins with a player who poses a real offensive threat that draws a double team (sometimes more), and that player makes a pass to an open player who knows a defensive rotation is coming at them, and throws it to that defender's man. Yes, of course it takes a smart player, good decision making, quick thinking. But it is all made possible b/c of a player who commands a double team. In your scenario, if TMac had gotten the rebound and passed it out on the break. I don't think Blake's "system" would have rewarded him with a "good" point. Really dude, did you make a bet with someone that you could carry on this argument as long as you possibly could? I can keep going on and on back and forth explaining every single point you'll want to point out, but you seem as the type that loves to just argue just to argue. I'm not interested in that. This is a discussion board, not an arguing board, not an annoy board, etc.
Actually, I do watch those players. And they take contested jumpers. They dont take contested fadeaways, which is what I was asking about. In my opinion, earlier in the season, a large percentage of tmac's jump shots were fadeaways. In my opinion, Kobe is consistent enough to the point that I'm worried about each shot he takes. With tmac, i'm usually worried that we dont have enough rockets underneath the basket to get the rebound.
Got it. Hockey assists can only begin with players who pose real offensive threats. So lets say chuck hayes and two opponents chase a loose ball to the 3 pt line. hayes gets it and the two opponents double team him. he gets the ball to rafer who gets it to tmac who scores. Its not a hockey assist for Hayes b/c he's not a real offensive threat. Can you rate the importance of a made basket, an assist, and a hockey assist? Which is the most important, 2nd most important, least important?
Is this not what the whole idea of this analysis is about? to debunk the theory that you think he takes alot of contested shots, contested fadeaways BASICALLY a low % shot. Im in the opinion that this analysis shows that he takes many high % shots instead. You obviously still do not agree despite the analysis that he takes high % shots and that he indeed just jacks up low % shots. I agree we need a bigger sample size of analysis like this. Im perfectly inclined to trust T-mac to drop shots when the jumper is contested. His shooting % has never been stellar but in recent seasons its been better. Yet the criticism has grown higher.
how many times does happen? If chuck hayes does make Hockey assist then he has a good play just like Mcgrady. you also forgot to note that a Hockey assist realistically can only happen when there is a double team. Hayes passing out of a double team to Rafer to T-mac is a good play for Hayes and a hockey assist. It just has to happen first.
Per EssTooKay, its not a hockey assist b/c Hayes is incapable of getting hockey assists since he isnt an offensive threat.
you also ignored that EssTooKay said that because T-mac was an offensive threat he drew the double team. Simple swing around the key is not a Hockey assist. A double team on an offensive threat and a swing to a bucket is a Hockey assist since you give the person a open look to the basket. Ill gladly credit Hayes with a hockey assist if he can draw a double team from the perimeter or from 16-18 foot away from the basket. Can you even imagine that happenning? Double team on battier from the corner? Double team on Head in the Corner? Double team on Brooks? Double team on Bonzi? Double team on Scola? I honestly can only think that T-mac and Yao get double teams and execute proper hockey assists in this team. Feel free to correct me if im wrong. They key is offensive threat drawing a double team.
