Hayes Street wrote: Well Manny, now you get History 101. Historical Fact #1: Bill Fitch tanked games to get Akeem. This tanking is THE reason the NBA now has a lottery. Check any source you want and I doubt you'll find any other reason. Did you deny this? No. Did I point out that this was the key point I was making? Yes. Historical Fact #2: Ralph Sampson was the 20 ppg scorer. Rodney Mac was the second "franchise" player (or so we thought) as the #3 pick in the draft (unless you think a #3 pick is not supposed to be a good pick). Historical Fact #3: The Rockets were considered to have a good young core with Sampson and McCray and the rest of the team when they tanked games to get Akeem. Bottom line is you can debate semantics but the Rockets were very similar in '84 and THEY TANKED THE GAMES. I am not in support of this idea, but OBVIOUSLY some "fans" don't know Rockets history, so I thought you ought to learn it before you criticize someone else as "not being a REAL fan." #1--I'm curious to see your proof or evidence that Fitch deliberately tanked games to get Olajuwon. Remember the Rockets won 14 games before Sampson and they improved by 15 wins. Yea, maybe they should have won more because Sampson was so dominant coming out of college but he really didn't have much help. (sorry, but "Black Magic", Lewis Lloyd doesn't come close.) To improve by 15 wins when all they had was Sampson was pretty good, imo. You must have had really high expectations for them that season. Let me ask you this: Did you think that the Rockets were going to win 50 games in Francis' rookie year? #2--Call it semantics but a very important point that you fail to realize is that Rocks Millenium said that this coming Rocket team had 2 franchise players (got to assume he meant Francis & Griffin) and a 20 point per game scorer (got to assume he means Mobley) and he mentions we are one consistent quality center away from contending (has to be talking about the human underachiever, Cato here). You say that Sampson was the 20 point per game scorer and one of the franchise players along with McCray!! Uh--who's the 3rd guy to match up here. Or let's put it this way--if you wanted to play a 3 on 3 game with these 2 teams, you would have Francis, Mobley, and Griffin on one side, while on the other, you would have Sampson, McCray, and WHO??? Caldwell Jones?? Robert Reid?? I'm just making a point that your statement that this upcoming Rockets team is the same type of team that the '83-84 team is a ludicrous and laughable statement. #3--I never said you weren't a true fan. I just said, "That maybe it is you that needs to learn your history." However, if you really believe that this Rocket team is the same as the one with Sampson in his rookie season, then I don't know what to think of you as a fan because it's obvious to me that you've been smoking some dope or weed or something. I guess you also think Olajuwon has played 164 games the last 2 seasons, averaged 24 PPG, 12 RPG, and should have been re-signed for 10 million. The bottom line is that you'll never convince me of your original argument and I doubt you'll convince anyone else.
First, just because I'm smoking dope does not mean I cannot make a coherent argument. Second, I made a factual claim, that the NBA instituted the lottery because of controvery surrounding a system based purely on record: specifically Fitch was openly accused by other teams of throwing games that year. If you want to dispute that then you find ONE article that HINTS at another reason for the change. Or ASSERT another reason for the change. You're just going to look silly. Third, I would take Sampson ('83/84 version), McCray, and Black Magic and they would thump Francis, Griffin, and Cat. You've got to be kidding. Sampson singlehandedly led a non basketball school through the ACC to the Final Four. He would dominate you (please use a Schwarzenneger accent when you say dominate). He would dominate you. Fourth, my point is that becauses someone expresses their opinion, they shouldn't be told they aren't a "real" fan, or a "dope smoker," or a communist (as outdated as that is).
Hayes Street wrote: First, just because I'm smoking dope does not mean I cannot make a coherent argument. Second, I made a factual claim, that the NBA instituted the lottery because of controvery surrounding a system based purely on record: specifically Fitch was openly accused by other teams of throwing games that year. If you want to dispute that then you find ONE article that HINTS at another reason for the change. Or ASSERT another reason for the change. You're just going to look silly. Third, I would take Sampson ('83/84 version), McCray, and Black Magic and they would thump Francis, Griffin, and Cat. You've got to be kidding. Sampson singlehandedly led a non basketball school through the ACC to the Final Four. He would dominate you (please use a Schwarzenneger accent when you say dominate). He would dominate you. Fourth, my point is that becauses someone expresses their opinion, they shouldn't be told they aren't a "real" fan, or a "dope smoker," or a communist (as outdated as that is). Boy, you are REAL SENSITIVE, aren't you? Weren't the Spurs, the year before Duncan joined, accused of tanking games. I know Robinson was accused by Barkley of faking his injury. My point in bringing that up is that someone is always going to say that a team tanked games if they don't live up to expectations. I've said it before and I'll say it again, your expectations of the Rockets in Sampson's rookie season must have been A LOT higher than anyone else!! Of course Sampson would dominate me--I'm only 6'3" and 180 lbs, but I doubt he would "dominate" Eddie Griffin. He would have the advantage over him, but it wouldn't be as lopsided as you would think. Besides, his knees would give out just trying to keep up with Francis, Mobley, and Griffin. Secondly, I'll gladly take Francis and Mobley over McCray and "Black Magic". Do you honestly think that either one of them is better than Francis or Mobley?? If you do then you really are seriously...(well, I've said that already--don't want to be beating a dead horse here.) You can argue with me until you're blue in the face. I'm not buying your original argument that this Rocket team is a similar team to the '83-84 team; however, keep responding--you continue to lose more and more credibility with every ludicrous response. "Black Magic" & McCray with Sampson "thumping" Francis, Mobley, and Griffin is the best one yet!!
I meant he would dominate Francis, Griffin, and Mobley, not you personally . Yes, I do believe Sampson was better than Francis, or Mobley, or Griffin. There is a reason he was NCAA player of the year, a reason he was NBA Rookie of the Year. He was a big man like no other. Just like Shaq is today, so was Sampson then. He broke the mold of what a big man could do. In hindsight he had injuries etc later, but the Sampson of 83-86 was awesome. Sampson wouldn't need Black Magic or McCray. He could have taken Craig Ehlo and Bobby Joe Reid and whipped Francis, Mobley, and Griffin. PLEASE EXPLAIN how you think those three would stop Sampson? Griffin is 6-10 to Sampson's 7-3+. Sampson played serious college ball in the ACC. Griffin would get eaten ALIVE. Griff, Cat, and Franchise would not be able to take a shot anyplace close to the basket without it getting blocked. Sampsons dunks beats jumpshots anyday... Besides, as I said in my ORIGINAL post, which you continue to ignore: Someone should not be called names because they express their opinion. If you want to contest their ideas, then please do so. Attack the idea, not the person. Tolerance is a virtue.
Hayes Street wrote: Besides, as I said in my ORIGINAL post, which you continue to ignore: Someone should not be called names because they express their opinion. If you want to contest their ideas, then please do so. Attack the idea, not the person. Tolerance is a virtue. I never called you any names. I did say that maybe you were smoking dope and that you were sensitive. However, you came up with the "communist" term, so don't even go there. Hey, you are entitled to your opinion just like I am and everyone else. It's just that I don't understand what you have against this year's Rockets team. It's like you don't think they are any good because they don't have Olajuwon or I don't know what. Face it, Sampson was all that '83-84 team had. Sure McCray had talent and potential, but so did Kelvin Cato. To think that team is just as good as or better than this year's Rockets team really blows my mind. You also say: Sampson wouldn't need Black Magic or McCray. He could have taken Craig Ehlo and Bobby Joe Reid and whipped Francis, Mobley, and Griffin. PLEASE EXPLAIN how you think those three would stop Sampson? Griffin is 6-10 to Sampson's 7-3+. Sampson played serious college ball in the ACC. Griffin would get eaten ALIVE. Griff, Cat, and Franchise would not be able to take a shot anyplace close to the basket without it getting blocked. Sampsons dunks beats jumpshots anyday... Well, I think Griffin would lure Sampson outside (Sampson would have to come out and honor Eddie's outside shot), that would leave Francis and Mobley to drive to the basket on Ehlo and Bobby Joe or Billy Bob or whoever. Guess what? Sampson won't be there to block the shot because he's too busy standing outside guarding Eddie. It wouldn't be easy because Sampson would probably score every time he touched it; however, I don't think he would stay in the low post the entire time. Hell, the way you talk about Sampson, you think he was good enough to win 40 something games by himself!! It's called a team game and not one man can do it alone. Did Shaq ever win a championship before Kobe? NO!! Did MJ ever win one before Quitten? NO!! Sampson might have won one with Olajuwon if his knees didn't act up, but it never happened, so we will never know. The way you go on about Sampson--no wonder you think that Fitch tanked games--you think that Sampson could win 40 games by himself. Remember, Virginia with Sampson did lose a game to a little school by the name of Chaminade, (no, not the singing group that liked to sing '50s songs and appeared in Grease) which is in Hawaii. So, it's not like Sampson couldn't have been beaten by a seemingly "overmatched" team.
Hell Yeah! Rockets should pull a Spurs, it worked for them. Tank the season as Francis gets "injured", then draft Jason Williams, slide Francis over to 2 guard, trade Cuttino, and then go all out in 2003. Or we could take Yao Ming instead of Jason Williams. Now that's a plan.
We don't need to tank the season. We've managed to get Steve Francis and Eddie Griffin without being in the lottery that last bundle of years. Tanking will only make the players hate playing for the Rockets. They're young they want to win. The Spurs just stunk that year. Robinson was "injured". The Rockets did not tank the year before Olajuwon. They flat out sucked.
As a season ticket holder during the 83-84 season, I don't recall the team tanking multiple games down the stretch (although maybe they did and I just don't remember), but they definitely did not try to win their last home game of the year. The Rockets had to lose that game to assure themselves that they would be in the coin flip that would bring them Hakeem. That game I was sitting in my usual seat several rows behind the Rockets bench. Although the precise details are fuzzy, I recall that Fitch, who usually played a short rotation, cleared the bench early in the game, playing everyone he could. I remember thinking to myself at the time that I had never seen a more obvious attempt not to win a game.
With team we have this year why would we want to tank games If nothing else this year's team she be at least entertaining, but knowing the rockets they'll probably being more frustrating than anything.
You missed the point HayesStreet, yo usay fans didn't complain when Fitch tanked the season for Hakeem. The difference THEN and NOW, is that the Fitch Rocket team needed a franchise player to build the team around, this Rocket team has TWO franchise players in Francis and Griffin, and very good player in Mo and Cat. Tank this team would be looked at as COUNTER productive to this team, the Fitch team, tanking gave them hope. This team already has that.
As hard as this will be, I will apply that old saying, "If you can't say something nice about someone, then don't say anything at all." Oh, what the hell---RaptorsDynasty: SHUT UP!!
No, you'll have to excuse me, but you've missed the point. First, the Rockets didn't need a Franchise Center when they drafted Hakeem. They already had one. They did suck however, and so they threw games to get the first pick again. The point is that Rockets fans should not act like the Rockets are above reproach vis-a-vis the issue of tanking games. The point is that they have done it before, so those screaming "the Rockets would never do that" should be quiet. Second, stop calling Griffin a franchise player. He has not even played an NBA game yet. It is certainly possible that he could someday be a franchise type player, but he will not be this year. Third, I never said this team should tank games, I said the Rockets organization is not above tanking games.
