Please take this to the Clutch BBS ballet forum!!! Just kidding. In fact, I'm voting for Lauren Anderson over both Yao and Stoudemire for ROY.
<blockquote><hr>Originally posted by declan32001 Happy New Year HeyP! I haven't seen one of your posts in ages. Be assured your "visceral fanatacism" is majestic.<hr></blockquote> So, I guess you didn't see the oeilpere sighting this week. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49327
Talk here in L.A. is that Brand will definitely be re-signed, but the Clips are not thrilled with what they got in Miller, or he in them. Hard as it is to imagine, there's a pretty good chance they'll let Miller and Kandi walk at the end of the year, if not trade one or both before then. And never forget, when it comes to basketball, Donald Sterling has repeatedly done the unthinkable.
I have been saying this for over 4 years Doc.... However, I do think that Steve is improving in his PG play. At least we are getting glimpses of what he might become, like the 11 assist game the other night. Steve has also learned how to pass on a break...at least passably. Defensively he stinks...he is horrendous, but with Ming and Griff at his back, we can get by. I am willing to give Rudy a bit more time, if anyone has really been paying attention, Rudy loves the inside out game. Since Ming is a rookie, Rudy is slowly moving the offense inside. In a year to a year and 1/2 they will be completely running the offense through Yao.......and Steve will look like a gem then. Patience......we need patience. DaDakota
HeyP GREAT read, thanks for the link. I haven't seen a game in almost a month (the holiday grind, but to hell with TV, I need to get home and see some games. I'll pick a Friday, Saturday back-to-back and I hope you wouldn't be offended if I turn up at your aisle to shake your hand. While Rudy- bashing seems to be at an all-time high, it's great to hear he's been exceptionally busy giving his critics further ammunition . oielpere is quite a resource. I've got to run (it's bowling night). But thanks again, there really is great info. on this board, and I for one, really appreciate it.
topfive, Kandi cannot be traded this year. And more than likely he will screw the Clips in the offseason by not letting a sign and trade happen. The Rockets aren't going to get Andre Miller, not without giving up Steve anyway. We can trade Mobley, but that makes Steve go to the SG, and I'll explain why that doesn't work below. We can trade Griffin, but does anyone really want to see Mo starting at PF again? We have nothing to give up for Miller (or Odom), because... Steve at the SG will only make this team worse. He will start having a scorers mentality on offense, and take at least 20-25 shots every game. That's less touches for Yao, and the way it looks now Griffin will be deserving plenty of touches down low also. That all equals non-championship basketball...you've got Yao down low watching Steve shoot like Iverson. Steve will either be the PG for the Rockets, or he will not be a Rocket at all. Therefore, we've got to live with what we've got now, and hope they mature. I think Cuttino has matured quite a bit this season, but Steve still has a ways to go. Steve and Cat need to eventually perfect their 3-point shot, and learn how to catch bounces from Yao while cutting through the lane. <b>Will</b> said it best:
I found some quotes from some Clipper fans on one of Millers last games. I don't watch the Clippers so I thought it would be best to find other fans oppions on the Amazing Miller. That bonehead pass by Dre Miller is the reason the Clips have struggled all season.I'm amazed they didn't blow this game. You can blame AG all you want but Miller just holds on to the ball too much especially in the 4th qtr when they desperatly need a basket, he had a triple double but he is still the problem with the offense, he just holds the ball too much, there is no ball movement at all with Miller. Clippers got lucky tonite that Mason missed that shot! It sounds like he's a Moochie clone. He holds the ball too much, and stops the ball movement. I guess you can look at Miller's stats and say, "Yeah those 10 assists mean he's a good passer," but that seems to be all that he is. I would venture to guess that he has little or even worse decision skills that Francis. Francis loves the Rockets as well as Houston. Miller could care less about the Clippers let alone LA. I want players that want to be in Houston that way they will try to play there best each and every night. The same goes with Cat. He took a lesser contract to be in Houston. The Raptors were offering a big contract to the Cat, but he loves Houston and the Rockets so much that he stayed. Our best passer on the Rockets is easily Yao Ming. Yao in his own right is probably a better passer that Miller, and is definitely a better decision maker than most players in this league today. The future is Yao, it doesn't matter if we have a 10 assist point guard, Yao will lead the way.
I have never read anything as ridiculous as this. You take one quote from one fan and use that as your scouting report on a player you admittedly don't watch. First of all, comparing Andre Miller to Moochie Norris is ridiculous and no one would make that comparison. Second, if it's so easy to get 10 assists/ game, why doesn't everyone do it? Steve averages about 6.6. Last year, Andre Miller averaged more assists per game than Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton, etc. In fact he led the league and averaged more assists than Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley combined . So far he's had difficulty in LA because of a myriad of problems I have already discussed ad nauseum that everyone ignores. Cliffs Note version: Miller doesn't like the Clippers and vice a versa because they're not committed to winning and they're not going to pay him what the Rockets paid Francis. Im not sure if you watch basketball, but the Clippers are the worst organization in the NBA. What a shock that no one wants to play for them and have been in the lottery every single season yet never seem to get better. The owner is going to let Olowakandi leave and receive no compensation. This man is the laughingstock of the league. How happy would you be if he was your boss? By the way, before being traded, Miller improved his assists every year in Cleveland. When he led the league last year, it was his third season with the team. How long has Steve been with the Rockets? Steve loves the Rockets and the Rockets love Steve. They also gave him the max. contract. You think if Les told Steve he wasn't getting the max that Steve would still love the Rockets? The original thread had a good premise which was that Steve was not an effective point guard. Somewhere down the line, a suggestion was made about Andre Miller. Next thing youknow, the thread is innundated with Andre Miller sucks, would not be any better than Francis, etc.... We're just making some suggestions of improving the team. One possibility is adding a viable PG that doesnt have one of the worst Assist/Turnover ratio in the league, will look to pass first and shoot second, and actually spend some energy playing defense. This is a Rockets discussion forum, not the Steve Francis fan club mouthpiece.
Steve averages almost exactly as many assists as Steve Nash. Both Steve Nash and Steve Francis are leading their teams to winning records. On the ESPN Fantasy Basketball player rater, Steve and Nash are both in the top 20. Miller is No. 57. Just thought I would point this out. Even though this is "not the Steve Francis fan club mouthpiece", it seems to me that you put him down to much and make Andre Miller sound like he is THAT much better as a PG. By the way, Bibby averages less assists, playing with a dominant frontcourt player and they are also doing just fine.
Bibby doesn't have to handle the ball all the time because both Divac and Webber bring the ball upto.
Nash averages 2.6 turnovers. Bibby averages 2.1 turnovers. Steve Francis averages 4.0 turnovers. The ESPN Fantasy Basketball player rater is skewed because of Francis' rebounds. He's a good rebounder, if that was part of being a good point guard, he would be a good point guard. Unfortunately thats not the case. It actually hampers his ability to run the fastbreak. Andre Miller is THAT much better than him as a PG, but not as a SG.
Ok, before I go into this, I would like to point out that none of this is personal so please don't chastize me for my "tone". Steve Nash. Steve Nash plays on one of the deepest teams in the league (and so does Mike Bibby). Nash plays 32.6 minutes per game. Steve plays over 40 minutes per game. Per 48minutes/game, Steve Nash is 8th in the league at 10.2. Even with all his problems, Andre Miller is 10th at 9.8 Steve Francis is 25th at 6.9. Steve Francis' Assist/TO ratio is 1.50. Among PG's, it's so bad it wouldnt even rank among the top 33 (which is as far as the list goes) .Moochie Norris comes in at 33 at 1.79 Andre Miller is 19th and Nash is 14th. If the list did extend further, I suspect Francis would rank around 35-40th. As far as Fantasy Basketball, you can't be serious to use that as a barometer of a player's value on an NBA team. It includes statistics that have nothing to do with PG's like 3 pointers, rebounds, blocks, etc.
Okay, I buy that Andre Miller is a better typical PG than Steve Francis. But we all seem to agree that Francis is the better overall talent. So what do those of you who are very critical of Steve Francis suggest outside of a trade to improve our team - with the current personnel? I am speaking about coaching adjustments (please be specific), minute distribution, best lineups together, what exactly should Francis/the rest of the team train to improve, even given the presumed lack of natural point guard instincts? Thanks.
And, Francis's teams are generally better as well. I don't know if they're related, but I suspect that they are. Many on here believed that Miller would lead the Clippers to the playoffs. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen. I personally think that the Clippers are more talented than the Rockets.
I cant find team assist numbers anywhere but I guarantee you Dallas and Sacramentos team assists per game numbers are much higher than the Rockets. So comparing point guards assist numbers may not be the most important thing to focus on when one wants to understand how good a point guard is at running an offense that functions well. Its seems to me that Nash and Bibby have their offenses running much more fluidly. They seem to trust their teamates and pass the ball multiples times during one possession, and by doing so they create many opportunities for their teamates to get assists. You'll rarely, if ever, see a one pass and out possession with those guys. This is what Im looking for from Steve.
And one more factor, we run an ISO offense. I know that doesn't mean you should shoot if you have the ball i.e. you should make things happen, but, we don't run a motion/5 passes and shoot type of offense.
The quote wasn't supossed to be taken as scripture, but more as an insight to how many fans like ourselves see our own respected teams. If you say that Steve sucks as a point guard, are we supossed to disregard what you say because you are mearly a fan? Many of this things that we say on this board have as much insight as some of the better sports casters in the world (Many sports anaylists have quoted many posts that have been on this board.) I'm sorry I took a chance on basketball fan, but I guess it doesn't really matter what any of us think because it will not change anything. Andre is an amazing passer, hence why he can get 10+ assists on a terrible team, but I could care less about averages. How many times has Steve found the open man, but only to find that he can't make the simplest of shots (Rice misses many of his open 3's, and Griffin has one of the worst jumpshots in the game.) When it is all said and done the team with the "W" is the only one that matters. Steve has proven that he can take a team on his back and lead them to a winning record. Miller isn't even the leader on his own team. If we do trade Steve, it better be a player that can at least lead his own team.
I completely agree with HP on his description of the pleasures of watching a team grow together. All of the good teams that I can think of have "fatal flaws" when you look at them on paper, but that is what makes a team develop a personality. 1) I agree with your definition of an assist, but I don't agree with your definition of a point guard. Steve can be a point guard on a championship team without completely revamping his game. I don't think that he can be a point guard on a championship team where he is required to run the offense in crunch time. Good point guards, on championship teams, with unconventional skills, that I can think of offhand include Kenny Smith, Sam Cassell and Ron Harper. I think that he will have to be a little more willing to give the ball up, but not necessarily run the crunch time offense. 2) I used to believe everyone when they said Steve shouldn't rebound, but then they started fast breaking this year pretty well. The only problem I see anymore with Steve rebounding is that he tries impossible putbacks in heavy traffic (which is a very fixable problem). The Rockets are currently one of the best rebounding teams in the league, partially due to Steve's rebounding, and I would hate to see him stop doing something he is naturally very good at in favor of running more breaks which he is not naturally good at. I would predict that rebounding could become the greatest strength of this team in the future. 3) The frustration that I feel when Steve turns the ball over in crunch time drives me INSANE. This is fixable. Steve is one of the best ballhandlers in the league. He has a great crossover, and is incredibly fast. This problem is due to a lack of concentration.
First of all, excellent points RIET. A clear distinction needs to be made which I think is being glossed over in this debate. This Rockets team will NOT be better w/o Francis on it. The people critical of Francis's POINT GUARD abilities are not saying that he should be jettisoned. The idea is to complement Francis with pieces that will better enchance his strengths and mask his weaknesses. Cuttino Mobley and Moochie Norris have similar weaknesses to Francis which is why this situation simply does not work. Instead of Mobley sharing the backcourt with Francis, a player like Brent Barry or Andre Miller would complement his game a LOT better. The opinion is not to show Francis the door, the opinion is to surround him with more complementary talent. Some posters are mentioning that this team would be worse w/o Francis etc. No kidding, ofcourse it would. Showing Francis the door is lunacy; complementing him with better talent is what this team needs and Mobley and Moochie are not it. Also, just curious why some continue to look at stats like assists in isolation. To compare steadiness of PGs you look at Ast to TO ratio; assists in isolation means nothing. It is pathetic that Steve hasnt even cracked a 2 to 1 ratio any of his seasons in the league. Take a look at the Ast to TO ratio of any of Steve's counterparts in this league for the first 4 seasons and compare that to Steve and you will see a gaping difference. Payton, A Miller, Davis, Stockton, Kidd, etc. Also, compare Steve Francis Ast to TO ratio over his first couple of seasons to that of Iverson, and you will see huge SIMILARITIES. Remember that Iverson was eventually moved to 2 guard b/c of this reason. As far as the line of thinking that the lack of court vision, savvy, passing etc in the backcourt does not matter b/c the offensive will run "exclusively" through Ming one day.... Ming could be the passing center ever and yet you cannot expect him to create EVERY shot for this team. We're talking 80 shots a game that is a LOT. In this day and age of the NBA, your offense simply cannot be completely one dimensional. No matter what, there will always be a sizable chunk of the offense where the guards have to make effective reads. Even in the Rockets championship days, every play did NOT run through Hakeem as is insinuated in this thread. This is one of the hugest misconceptions. The pnr played a very key role in the offense esp in the first championship run, and the guards made effective reads in that set. In the Sacramento situation, Mike Bibby does not average a ton of APG and that is fine. The point is that Bibby makes effective reads when he has the ball esp in the pnr situation which is reflected in his very solid Ast to TO ratio. It is not a coincidence that the Kings rank in the top 5 in the league in ast to to ratio. I can guarantee you that if you swapped Francis, Mobley and Moochie with Bibby, Christie and Jackson, the Kings would be no where near that ranking despite having two of the best frontcourt passers in the game. At the end of the day, the truly elite teams rank near the top of the league in Ast to TO ratio AND FG% against which correlates strongly to a high ranking in point differential. History has proven that teams that are strong in these statistical categories are the ones that end up advancing to the deep rounds of the playoffs and the Finals. The Rockets are halfway there.... The Rockets have been very good in the FG% against ranking (defensive indicator) but stink in the Ast to TO ratio. If this trend continues, you will see them finish up as a middle of the road team. As long as that trend continues you will never see them become an elite team.
Excellent post, MManal. Does anyone else think that replacing Moochie with a more stable backup point guard, excellent passer with court vision, someone like Mark Jackson who is unfortunately on the Jazz right now, coupled with getting a point forward who handles the ball at times would solve the situation? What about Mobley's ability to change and adapt? Do we really have to replace him or can't he just change his game? Christie and Barry have not been as savvy as they are today during their first years in the league.
