The Hidalgo deal and the Wagner deal were two different moves for two different reasons. Not to mention, Hidalgo wasn't traded until two months into the 2004 season. He was not an off-season salary dump. Had Hidalgo come anywhere close to living up to the huge contract he signed, he would not have been traded. Wagner was b****ing about the fact that we didn't add anyone at the trading deadline that year. Many whiners were on here b****ing about it too, even though, IIRC, the biggest named moved at the deadline was Sidney Ponson. It was probably one of the more anti-climatic trading deadlines in recent memory (rivaled by 2005, of course). There was never a rumor about Wagner being traded. He bought his own ticket out the door when he opened his mouth and disparaged the franchise. If you want to argue the trade itself and whether or not it was a good one from a purely baseball point of view, that's fine. I actually agree with you on that. You can't blame Purpura for that, though. However, once a player talks about his bosses the way he did, there's no way he was going to stick around. By the way, what "high level" was it again? High school doesn't count.
You guys are crazy if you think Bagwell can even be a shell of his former self. He should do everyone a favor and just hang it up. He is going to hurt the team more than help them. Its called denial. Please see Rickey Henderson, Patrick Ewing, or Deion Sanders for examples..... The only thing that could possibly help him is if he got a right arm transplant from a 25 year old. Of course I would love to eat crow if he proves everyone wrong....
"You guys are crazy" followed by hope that you're wrong. If you have hope, it's not QUITe as definitive as you think it is. I think we all realize that the likelihood is that he won't be anything close to what we want. But there's a chance, and like you, we're hoping for it. He's earned the right to be able to wait and try to come back and let them evaluate whether he can or can't do it. Name Rickey, Patrick, and Deion.. how about naming the guys that can still produce? Geez, 800 year old Julio Franco. Isn't great, but he's years older and still producing at a decent level. Kevin Willis for years in the NBA. How about Bruce Matthews forever for the Oilers/Titans at a very high level? It happens...give him a chance to see if he can do it too.
For every Julio Franco there is a Sammy Sosa. The odds are seriously stacked against him being even close to average at 1st base.
Except all of those guys' declines were purely attributable to age. The question is if Bagwell's declining performance over the last 2-3 years was due to the age or due to a bad shoulder. If it's the latter, and the injury is healed such that it no longer affects him as significantly, then its very possible his performance would rise. Besides which, no one's asking him to be the Bagwell of 2000 - just hoping that he can be that of 2004 (when he hit a career-worst 27 HRs).
Well, Sammy's decline was due to the whole stopping the steroids and corking stuff. But yeah, the odds are stacked against him, IMO.
Id love to see that, but here is a good question for everyone to ponder..... If Bagwell struggles in spring training and the first half of the season, will you blame it on his bum right arm or the fact that historically he has been a slow starter that heats up more towards the 2nd half of the season? I guess that is what has me most concerned. It seems that baseball players like to play through pain and hide their injuries (ala Morgan Ensberg in 2004 and Bagwell whenever he was injured before - not sure when). So we never really get to know for sure if its just a slump or their lingering injury that is holding them back. My hope is that Bags is up front and honest with the team about his health and doesnt try to mask the first part of the season by blaming it on his typical slow starts.
Well now even R. White who they were looking at is gone - not that I am overly excited about him, but Purpura just can't seem to get anything done. I realize both parties need to agree on a free agent signing or trade, but other teams seem to be able to get things done. Why not us? That burden falls on the man in charge - Purpura, bottom line. If I don't make sales for my company I should be fired, if he can't improve the team, same scenario for him. Here is the article for R.White
No, they weren't. They were both chiefly motivated by money. Everyone but the apologists acknowledges this. Arguing that Hidalgo was traded during the season as opposed to before it doesn't exactly help your fast-sinking argument. Desperate for anything to latch onto, I suppose... Hey, Drayton's not cheap! He paid an extra two months worth of Hidalgo's contract before dumping him!! See!!! Laughable. The dramatic increases in the Astros' revenue over the past 2-3 seasons has been outlined. What the apologists can not and will not answer is the question of where has the money gone? What upgrades to this team have been made in the past 2 offseasons? As you can see, there is a disconnect that can not be explained by the apologists.
Trader_Jorge, Do you believe that the Astros would've traded Hidalgo had he continued to put up his 2000 numbers? They traded Hidalgo because he sucked. Is he even in the league anymore? Also, have you seen Drayton McLane's books? I have not so I cannot comment on how much extra money he's received and how that correlates with operating expenses and salaries. I do know that our payroll has increased nearly every single year since McLane's been our owner and that our payroll ranking in comparison to other teams is right where our market size is. Would I like it if McLane spent more money? Hell yeah I would. I guess I'm just too happy with the success this team has had over the last decade to get so riled up about our "cheap owner". I remember back when I used to be able to post in the D&D how you would criticize people who were always doom and gloom about things. Why do you and the other whiners choose to do nothing but whine? Why can't you enjoy the success that the Astros have had? A success that 75% of other MLB fans wish they could match.
Dude, you don't even know that he played for the Rangers last year and you are trying to lecture me on baseball? Zero cred, right there folks. They traded him a year after he put up 28 homers and hit .309, with an OBP of .385. Those are very good numbers. He had a poor year in 2004 and was injured for a large part of last year. The fact of the matter is that the Astros dumped him for salary concerns. Bottom line. Same with Wagner. How you can argue that is amazing to me.
Speaking of credibility, what high level did you play at again? Podunk Waco suburb high school doesn't count. Had Hidalgo continued to put up 2000 numbers, he would not have been traded, pure and simple. He wasn't living up to his contract, so the Astros did what every other team not named the Yankees would do, they got rid of him. It wasn't a pure salary dump as you're suggesting. Same with Wagner. Do you predict that Berkman or Oswalt will be traded next offseason?
No, and there is a reason why McLane won't show them. He's making money. Mark Cuban looked at buying the Pirates this offseason and disclosed on Jim Rome's show that they were netting $10-20mm a year. That's the Pirates. The Pittsburgh market and associated tv revenues. With horrible attendance. And no post-season income. Are you here to say that the Astros are losing money while the Pirates are making $10-20mm a year? Drayton can shut all his critics up if he opened up his books. Has he? No. What does that tell you?
The Pirates who have one of the lowest payrolls in the league. I don't know how much Drayton's making and I honestly don't care. He's raised payroll nearly every year and we've (or I have...I know you haven't) been rooting for playoff contending teams for a decade now, save 2000. I just don't have the negativity that 95% of you here have. You are the ones who have turned people like me and MadMax into "Drayton apologists". What high level, T_J? Why won't you answer the question?
I don't think that means anything. The Pirates had a payroll under $40 mill. Remember when the late 90s Clippers were supposed to be one of 3 or 4 teams turning a profit? I haven't heard Drayton use the "I'm losing money" in a long time. I do agree, he should open up the books to prove it if that's his case. I'm withholding judgment till I see where our payroll ends up.
The astros payroll is roughly $30mm higher than the Pirates, who are making 10-20mm a year in net income. Are you telling me that the Astros revenue is not 10-20mm higher (the breakeven point)? You are nuts if you are here to make that argument. There is no question that Drayton is making money hand over fist in this operation. There is a reason why he won't open up his books and fought so hard against it during the CBA negotiations a couple of years ago. I will not answer your *personal* question, other than to say you are wrong. The very fact that your anger drives you to go personal on me is evidence that you don't belong in the D&D and can't control your temper. I am friends with several major league baseball players and have actually worked with the Astros senior brass in the past. You and Max? Well, you are highly adept at turning on Fox Southwest and becoming couch potato general managers. What a resume.
