You do realize that the "other side" is saying the exact same thing about us, don't you? Just because you have a state actor doing the dirty deeds (only supported by less than 40% of the population I might add) doesn't make the action any more justified in the "other side's" eyes.
Not what Americans think of them, what the entire world thinks of them. Go ask a Chinese guy in Beijing and he'll have the most negative opinion of Muslims. This isn't about America - it's about your faith and it's standing and place in the world. If you don't care about that, I really feel sorry. When Americans do things that I don't like, I confront them about it. I try to persuade them that it reflects poorly - i may not succeed, but I try. No you don't have to go over there and round them up...but as a Muslim with a different perspective - you could at least try to persuade people of a different point of view. Maybe if you succeed in changing one mind they will change another. But no, instead you only wish to get defensive at the critics. C'mon man, I'm not trying to put you down or put Islam down, I just want to stop what's coming - and since I am not a Muslim, why can't you see a point, and think - hey, i care about how my faith is perceived in this world - enough that I want to stop terrorism, and they way to stop it is to attack the underlying support for it amongst Muslims living in Iran for example. No one has to like America - but don't you think "Death to America" is a bit extreme?
When has the United States ever attacked a Muslim homeland due to terrorism in which innocent non-terrorist Muslims have been effected? We went to Iraq to liberate them and the Iraqis love us for it. See my point. Why would they care what we think of them now? We already have set the precedent of attacking them for other reasons. They know we can do it again at any time, for whatever reason, so why care for our opinion?
Sorry, by "we", I didn't necessarily mean Americans, just us as a board but also all of humanity. I wasn't addressing this case of beheading - the younger the victim, the more tragic the murder should be viewed. I was addressing DaDakota's comment of all beheadings and attribution to Muslims. Psychologically, it's interesting how we suddenly become alert when we hear of a beheading but don't really think much of a gunshot wound. Wouldn't having one's internal organs poisoned to death as the bullet enters the body be more torturesome of a death than beheading? I don't know, but I don't see why we even make the distinction by saying "those f*cking Muslims! beheading people!"
I think it's because "we" don't do that any more. A gun is modern. Using a sword to cut off a head seems like these people are stuck in the past. Plus separating the head from the body is symbolic of the ruthlessness. When someone is just shot there it doesnt have theatrics of a beheading, which takes more work than pulling a trigger.
Because you're an American, of course you care what America does. You are speaking of Muslims as some homogeneous race with resembling beliefs, histories, experiences, and struggles. I'm not sure what Tiger's nationality is, I think he said he was Arab earlier, so assuming he lived in Egypt and his government was committing atrocities, I'm sure he would speak out against them. How is he, an American Muslim, any representative voice for Muslims abroad? It doesn't work that way. Just because they all subscribe to a common religion doesn't mean they all respect each other or even worship the same way. Didn't you even classify Iran as an Arab nation in another thread? Noone can do anything because noone in the Muslim world has a voice and there is no unity. The term "Muslim world" itself is a fallacy.
I didn't know you were an expert on Chinese culture, but that's beside the point... Muslims constitute a minumum of one out of five people in the world, it's the fastest growing religion (including in the secular West), and there isn't some uniformity among those Muslims that live in various parts of the world, live under different conditions (economic, political, and social), speak different languages, have different understanding of Islam, and for the absolute vast majority are peaceful people who go about their daily lives much like you and I. Here is the deal NewYorker: you're assuming that in my daily life I don't 'do my part' to counter negative assumptions about Muslims/Islam, but I would say that I do more than OK on that end through the very act of living my daily life, treating people well, helping those in need, and contributing positively to society anyway I can. You're attempting to hold me responsible (theoritically speaking) for what is taking place half a world away; that is essentially the major flaw in your argument, especially since you live in a society (this country that is) which preaches individual responsibility and abhors collective punishment. Otherwise, why don't we send our police force into drug or crime-infested neighborhoods so they can flatten them for not addressing the 'violent' and 'criminal' elements among them? Your argument is flawed. The real problem here is, IMO, your lack of knowledge about the very nature of Islam, the so-called "Muslim world" that is a myth and simply doesn't exist, and the political/economic/historical reality that would help frame a context for what's going on in any part of the world. The real problem is this: your views are way too simplistic, you assume the whole world is 'black and white' and that people somehow act as a collective body, and that the collective body is responsible for what an individual or a small group does. Your views, in other words, are completely false and detached from reality. If you want to engage in a reasonable, thought-out debate to explain what your propose "Muslims should do" to curb the pressumed "bad rep" they are gaining for Islam, I am game. I don't see how what you're proposing can be implemented, especially since you have been very dismissive of anyone/group that has publicly condemned terrorism and other heinous crimes in the name of Islam, which is in reality ALL we, as Muslims, can do. Here is exhibit A of what I am talking about: Why would I be defensive? Did I commit the crime in question? One is supposed to get defensive when he/she is being accused of something, That's EXACTLY my point here: you are blaming the "collective" body for the actions of a few. Should you get defensive because some redneck walked into a gas station and shot an "Arab" (who turned out to be an Indian Sikh)? You are not responsible for anyone but yourself and your immediate environment. Not you or anyone else can "put Islam down", so don't worry about that, no offense taken. It's been attempted to be sure (and still is), but has failed and will fail at every turn. If anything, Islam is reaching more people than ever before (in an ironic manner because of all the attention to what's going on in the world today). But that's really besides the point. Thanks for your concern though... Lucky for you then, the problem is I am yet to meet a Muslim terrorist face-to-face or at mosques or elsewhere, so it's kind of hard to have such a discussion with extremists I have never met. Otherwise, I try to do my part when the opportunity presents itself. Good point. So you're saying the best way to counter a problem is to address the 'underlying roots'? I completely agree. So let's talk about Western imperialism/neo-imperialism... I respect your views, but they are flawed IMO, we will just agree to disagree on this one. IMO, you're subconsciously looking to blame a religion for the actions of some of its followers, and that's silly, because you either apply this standard to every other group of people (Buddhists, Christians, etc.), or you don't. BTW, we should also address the image of Americans, because as things stand now, we are the most unpopular country in the world.
Agreed, it's all about how we were pre-conditioned as a society to view these things. As I have said, it's a "foreign" concept that is unfamiliar to our psyche, and that's what makes it more 'alarming'. But, as I like to say, the dead don't care much if they were killed by getting shot, beheaded, or killed in the "name of freedom" with a freedom missile. The end result is death. That's what concerns me the most: the end result.
That might be the single most stupidest thing I have read on this board. Where exactly am I suppose to find these Muslims with a "different point of view"? There are a billion Muslims in the world and I have yet to encounter a Muslim personally who condones beheadings and terrorism. I am a Muslim from India. I have never encountered any Indian Muslims who thought that way. I have been to the United Arab Emirates. Did not find anyone over there who thought killing Americans was okay. Nor have I met any Muslims in the US who support terrorism. Rest assured the first Muslim I find that has anything to do with terrorism would be turned into the police. I just cant believe its hard for people like you to understand that. Do you really think that if cabbage, tiger, adeel, me or any other Muslim happened to run into some terrorist we would look the other way? Tiger is right. We should just make his post all of our signatures. Anytime something bad is posted about Muslims we should just come in the thread and leave our signature: I take full responsibility for the beheadings and suicide bombigns anywhere and everywhere in the world and fully acknowledge that Islam endorses beheading of innocent people, and will readily buy a plane ticket to travel to Indonesia and personally hunt down those involved. If I don't, I understand that I will be considered a terrorist sympathizer and enabler.
You can start in places like Muslim bookstores that sell books that endorse violence against women, racism, etc. When outsiders see this, like the ones found in the UK, what do you expect us to think? It's out there, and not that hard to find. This Muslim author is trying to take out the trash. He is making a positive effort, not excuses. http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1495_0_25_0_C18
All that link and the following link said that the bookstore had one book called "defense of the muslim land" which happend to be endoresd by osama bin laden. wtf, so if osama drinks coke and says its good stuff, the rest of the world is forbidden from drinking coke... Most books which you speak of are NOT available in a bookstore that follows islam. Darrusalam, Al huda, minar, etc etc well known ones in houston, DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED, why? well because they know what islam does teach and what the garbage out there is... If outsiders are stupid enough to judge their opinions of a religion based on what a bookstore sells then i doubt anyone cares what their opinion is...
You don't know any Muslims who hate America??? Because it's that hate that drives all of these kinds of acts....and it starts there.
I think you're also afraid to examine what you've been grown-up to believe because like most people, that's a pretty scary thing...if you saw some truth in it, it might unravel your entire reality - i mean, that's a scary thing. I understand that, which is why I don't call you names in response to your hostility. May be worthwhile if you consider that people may have some truth in what they say before you dismiss because it hits a sensitive spot.
See, your defensive position is what outsiders do not like. "They are stupid if the judge our religion by what's in a Muslim bookstore" is crazy. This Muslim author understands a serious problem yet you dismiss it to defend Islam at all costs, while throwing insults.
LOL! Not only do I know Muslims that hate America, I know Hindus, Chiristians and athiests who hate America as well. The majority of the world has an unfavorable opinion of the US at the moment. And WTF am I suppose to do to Muslims that hate the US? Of course I know Muslims that hate US. That is their right. There is a difference between hating America and being a terrorist. Just because some people hate the US does not make them a terrorist. Next stupid question please.
No offense New Yorker, but you are just spewing garbage now. I really did not sense hostility from tiger's posts. He made a lengthy post refuting your points. Your response to it is some incoherent rambling and then a remark expecting thanks for not calling him names!?! If anyone is being hostile, it is you, as noted by responses from several posters.
LOL! That's a riot. He point by point destroyed your weak attempts at arguments in a polite, respectful manner and the best response you can muster up is, "that's a scary thing...which is why I don't call you names." If anyone is afraid that their entire reality is being unraveled, it is you who STILL cannot comprehend that Muslims are not a homogeneous body. I don't understand how this is so difficult for you to grasp. You have officially gone off the deep end.
What's the truth NewYorker? What is it I am afraid to 'admit'? Please enlighten me, because I am losing interest quickly in debating someone who refuses to keep an open mind and admit that he holds certain views that he won't let go off. What do you want me to admit? What truth is it I am afraid will 'unravel my entire reality'? Is it Islam itself? Do you know that the more I learn of the world and the more I study my religion the more I am convinced of it? Do you know that I have made personal efforts to 'hear the other side' as to why Islam is wrong and they are right? Do you have any idea how many lengthy discussions I have had with Christian friends who wanted to persuade me that I was wrong? Do you have any idea what Islam is about? Do you have any proof whatsoever from Islamic texts that my religion endorses terrorism or suicide? Do you know that I can provide you (as can most Muslims) with substantial evidence that non of what you're reading in the news is Islamic, and in fact contradicts the very teachings of my religion? I respect your rejection/distaste for Islam as a philosophy of life, that's certainly your right and everyone else's. However, why don't you back up your claims with 'facts' for once? Doesn't it say something about you that you are passing judgement on a religion as vast, diverse, and influential as Islam without knowing what the heck this religion is all about? Please, I am begging you, enlighten me! I am lost and you have an obligation to show me the way...
So Muslims should not defend their lands, Meowgi? Is that why you object to that book, or is it simply because Bin Laden happend to read it and liked it regardless of its contents? There are serious problems in Muslim societies, there is no ifs or buts about that. However, what's so ground-breaking about that? Doesn't every society has its share of problems to deal with? Don't we have our own problems in this country (racism, extremism, poverty, intolerance, etc.)? What is it you want people to acknowledge? That there are problems? Hell yah there are problems, and they need to be dealt with. How does that make Muslims 'unique' in any way? Aren't there problems that constantly pop-up from time to time that we all have to deal with? I am not sure I get what you are trying to say, so please clarify for me, appologize if I am misreading what you are trying to say.
Tell ya what, eye for an eye, right. How about every time a Mullah speaks out against the Western world ie eliminating Israel or condoning killing innocent people, we put a bullet through his heart. He can keep his head, but he gets to die for his beliefs, just like these school girls. I can't believe people can even think of defending this religious fanatics...I don't give a RATS ass if they are Muslim, Christian, or Buddhists, they should be hunted down and given a death that their religion most condemns. An example would be if they are Muslim, bathe the corpse in pigs blood, and bury it. Sometimes putting a head on a pike is the best type of deterent. DD
