FB, I sincerely appreciate your heartfelt reply. It wasn't confusing at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you basically advocate Universalism. Your e-mail system is blocked, so you can just e-mail me the information when you see this. Then we can discuss the issues in the forum. Thanks.
Actually I'm not exactly a universalist. I believe in the bible and Christ etc. It's just that while I don't agree with other religions, I don't think they would be punished eternally in ways so painful that we can't imagine, for making one wrong choice. Anyway, that's strange that my e-mail is blocked. I will e-mail you something in the next couple of days.
aghast, I wrote "specified complexity," not "genetic complexity." I was referring to the sequence specificity of DNA. Systems that are characterized by both specificity and complexity have information content. I think an intelligent being is responsible for the information encoded in DNA because that's the best possible explanation.
Is that really the BEST explaination though? It is equally as plausible that our DNA was encoded by a race of aliens who lived long before we ever existted. It is equally as plausible that it isn't a "being" that controls everything, but the collective energy of the entire universe working in unison. I think the concept of intellegent design has its merits, but the idea that it somehow means "God" is at work could easily be our own minds trying to wrap themselves around a concept far too great for any of us to grasp and, as a result, we assign the concept of "God" to it because it is easiest. And even if intellegent design was at work in the building blocks of humanity, that doesn't necessarily means one particular religious faith holds the key to that design. In fact, it is logical to assume that if there were intellegent design behind the universe, it would be impossible for us to boil down the entire conept into a single ideology/theology with one core principle at its center. To be that vast belies the concept of a religious principle that small.
Jeff, I used the term, "intelligent being," on purpose. I conclude that the intelligent being is the God of the Bible because I believe the Bible is the Truth. If a person is unwilling to accept the idea of God, then he/she might stop at the idea of an intelligent being. I do think an intelligent being is the best explanation. Other possible explanations include chance, prebiotic natural selection, and chemical necessity (self-organization). I don't think it's logical to think that "the collective energy of the entire universe working in unison" could have been responsible for the information encoded in DNA.
But, every religion in existence could claim that this "intellegent being" belongs to their religious belief. I know that you believe the Bible to be the true word of God, but there are plenty of other religious practitioners who would disagree. I'm just not sure you can leap from "intellegent being" to "Biblical Christian God" and say that it the most plausible concept. As for the "collective energy of the entire universe," quantum theorists would disagree that this theory is illogical. Scientists have found that below the smallest identifyable particles, there is really just energy vibrating in unison. That energy is EXACTLY the same for a rock as it is for a person. It is only the way that energy is organized that creates grass or people or buildings. That energy doesn't just sit inside of us. It is in the air around us that is filled with tiny particles of matter and running through us. Given the idea that God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omnicient, that would seem to lead us to logically conclude that God is...well, EVERYTHING. He isn't just a being sitting on a throne but an energy that siffuses all matter everywhere always. As a result, the entire energy of the universe working in unison is as plausible an idea as any.
I think you misunderstand my reasoning, which is not your fault, so I'll try to explain. I didn't mean to imply that one should assume God is the God described in the Bible. I think an intelligent being is responsible for the information encoded in DNA because that's the best possible explanation. At that point, I don't draw any conclusions about who/what that being is. I believe the being is the God of the Bible because I believe the Bible is the Truth, but I'm only willing to accept it as the Truth because there's a certain level of evidentiary support for its claims. And then God's gift of faith enables me to believe. I was never arguing that the information content of DNA alone points to the God of the Bible. I was only arguing that it points to an intelligent being. Quantum mechanics is fascinating, but I couldn't find anything on the internet positing the theory that "the entire energy of the universe working in unison" is responsible for the information encoded in DNA. I just don't think it's logical.
I was talking about "string theory" and how it connects all of us together at a sub-molecular level. I'm not talking about encoding DNA. This is well below the level of DNA on a quantum level.
FB, I'm not sure what your position is exactly, so I'll just address the idea that Christianity advocates Universalism (the doctrine of universal salvation). Please keep in mind the Bible verses I listed before. I think one of the flaws in the idea that Christianity advocates Universalism is that it focuses on God's love to the point of not fully recognizing God's holiness. Then it becomes inconceivable that God would subject anyone to eternal suffering, no matter how much the Bible warns of hell. You raised the example of someone who had lived an exemplary life, yet never accepted Christ, and you implied that it would be unjust for God to subject someone like that to eternal punishment. No one can judge another, so let's not deal with specific people. A person who does a lot of good in this world stands out, but only relative to other human beings, which is a key point. No matter how much good a person does in his/her life, he/she is still a sinner. We are born with a sinful nature. In terms of salvation, no one can be declared righteous based on his/her own merit, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." God is a God of love, but he is also a God of holiness. A holy God must also be a wrathful God. God's wrath is directed against what is contrary to, and in opposition to, his holy nature and will. The Bible states, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36)." I think Universalism refuses to acknowledge the doctrine of hell because it just seems too severe. The questiion, though, is whether it is unjust. Was it unjust for God to give a command to kill men, women, children and infants, as he did through Samuel in 1 Samuel 15? No. God is never unjust. I wonder sometimes why God didn't at least allow the babies to be adopted, but who am I to question God's judgment? I can't question his judgment regarding anything, including the doctrine of hell. God is a forgiving God, but there are times in the Bible when God strikes people dead. Was God being unjust? No. In creation, the penalty for sin is death. God wasn't being unjust when he destroyed people. That was justice. God was being merciful when he let anyone else continue to live. Similarly, it would be justice if we all went to hell, because we're all sinners. God allowing us to receive eternal life, through Christ, is a demonstration of his mercy and grace.
"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." - 1 Peter 3:15 I can't prove Christianity is the Truth, but I can give a person reasons to believe that it is. Faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from God, but a person can use his/her intellect to evaluate the case for Christianity. Many Christians have written books to make the case for Christianity. I'll give a few of the reasons to believe, out of the many, but it's better to evaluate the case after examining all the evidence. You have to have a humble heart and an open mind. You can't conclude that a loving God can't possibly exist because there's suffering in the world. You can't conclude that the God of the Bible can't possibly be a just God because he sometimes kills people in the Bible. At least allow for the possibility that God, who created the universe, knows better than you do. Consider the Bible. It has 66 books, and was written by over 40 authors over a period of about 1,500 years, yet its message is profoundly unified and coherent. God created human beings in his image. All human beings are guilty of sin and deserve eternal punishment. God loved us so much he entered the world in the flesh and died as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior shall have eternal life. The Old Testament was an incomplete message from God. In the Old Testament, God declares that he will send a Messiah and that he will establish a new covenant. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ emerges as the Messiah, and God establishes the new covenant. The New Testament completed God's message. Let's allow for a moment that this world could have been possible independent of God, and that there is no God. But picture the world without human beings, too, because that's what I think the world would resemble if there there were no God. There would be natural enemies, but there would be no hatred. There would be pain, but there would be no torture. There would be killing, but there would be no murder. There would be conflict, but there would be no good and evil. But that's not the world we know. There is good and evil. Good exists because of God's absolute righteousness, and evil exists because there is rebellion against God. We live in a world where human beings stand apart from all other animals. Human beings are created in the image of God, imbued with a moral conscience. Human beings are born with a sinful nature. In the Old Testament, God required the Israelites to give offerings to him. Sin offerings and guilt offerings were sacrifices of expiation and propitiation. There was a special day, once a year, called the Day of Atonement. On that day, the high priest would sacrifice a bull as a sin offering for himself and the other priests, and he would sacrifice a goat as a sin offering for the people. In addition, he would place his hands on a second goat, symbolically transferring Israel's sin, and then he would send the goat into the desert as a scapegoat, symbolizing the removal of sin and its guilt. The tabernacle was divided into two rooms—the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place. The Most Holy Place contained the ark of the covenant. Only the high priest could enter the Most Holy Place, and he only did so on the Day of Atonement. God is a holy God. The Day of Atonement showed that atonement was necessary for the sins of human beings to be removed. But animal sacrifices can't remove human sins. The true atoning sacrifice was Jesus Christ, who died as the perfect sacrifice for sin. "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood (Romans 3:25)." Christ's death on the cross was a sacrifice of expiation, because it removed our sins. It was also a sacrifice of propitiation, because it quenched God's wrath against us, saving us from eternal punishment. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36)." If you don't think the Bible is the word of God, and if you think the New Testament writers invented the concept of Christ as an atoning sacrifice, then how do you account for Isaiah 53, which was written by the prophet Isaiah about 700 years before Christ was even born? It not only makes accurate predictions about Christ, it explains the theological significance of Christ's death. "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed (v. 5)." "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (v. 6)." "After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities (v. 11)." Verse 10 states that "it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer," and that "the Lord makes his life a guilt offering." Verse 11 states that the suffering servant "will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." Verse 12 states that "he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." The New Testament, in Hebrews 10, places the sacrifices prescribed by the law in the Old Testament in perspective: The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, O God.' " First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - Hebrews 10:1-10. The sanctuary of the tabernacle of the Old Testament was just an earthly, imperfect, and temporary copy of the true sanctuary in heaven, and so was the sanctuary of the temple at the time of Christ. At the moment when Christ died, "the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51)." That was the inner curtain separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. The tearing of that curtain signified that Jesus had made it possible for us to enter into God's presence. "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." - Hebrews 9:15 "It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." - Hebrews 9:23-28 Is it just a coincidence that the New Testament complements the Old Testament so perfectly? Is it just a coincidence that Isaiah 53 is so accurate?
I think the life of Paul is further evidence that Christianity is the Truth. Originally named Saul, he was born in Tarsus at about the same time or slightly after Christ was born. Saul was a Jew and a Roman citizen. He was well-educated. He had a working knowledge of Latin, and he was able to speak Aramaic and Greek. As an adolescent, he was sent to Jerusalem to study under a Pharisee named Gamaliel, the most famous Jewish teacher of his time. Saul became a well-known Pharisee who persecuted Christians and did everything he could to oppose Christianity. He was present when Stephen, the first Christian martyr, was stoned to death by the Sanhedrin. Saul gave his approval to Stephen's death. In Acts 26, Paul (speaking to King Agrippa) describes his own conversion: "I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. In my obsession against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them. "On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' " 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' "So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. That is why the Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. But I have had God's help to this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen—that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles." - Acts 26:9-23 Paul suffered tremendously for his faith, but he wrote, "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us (Romans 8:18)." Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. - 2 Corinthians 11:24-28 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. - Romans 5:3 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. - 2 Corinthians 12:10 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace. - Acts 20:24 I think Paul's transformation is compelling evidence that Christianity is the Truth. After his conversion, he completed three missionary journeys before traveling to Rome in A.D. 59-60. It's possible he made a fourth missionary journey after his imprisonment in Rome (A.D. 60-62). He preached to Jews, Greeks, and Romans, and he wrote almost half of the books in the New Testament. He endured extreme suffering because of his commitment to Christ, yet he rejoiced in his sufferings because he loved Christ. God used him in a powerful way. There are over 5,600 known Greek manuscript copies of the New Testament, with about 99.5% textual accuracy. Regarding the Gospels, there just wasn't enough time for a legend to develop about Christ's resurrection. And if Christ did not really rise from the dead, why didn't Christianity just die out? The Gospel writers wrote about Christ's resurrection as a fact, and true Christians accepted it as a fact. Paul wrote, "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to have been false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:14)." There are so many religions and belief systems in the world today, it might seem difficult to know what to believe. It seems reasonable to think that God would not let someone who was sincerely seeking him to believe in something false, though. If you are seeking the Truth, I encourage you to be persistent. God said, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13)." If you are interested in Christianity, you should know the definition of the Trinity, even if we can't fully comprehend it. There is only one God in Christianity. James R. White defines the Trinity in his book, The Forgotten Trinity: "Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." I'll close with the opening verses of the Gospel of John. "Word" refers to Jesus. God bless. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. - John 1:1-13
