aghast, thanks, just started reading the end of the thread. ZRB, most of your questions are actually addressed in Why Bad Things Happen to Good People. The only logical thing is that there is an all powerful god who restrains itself from acting, he gives us the opportunity to demonstrate our true selves. (I haven't read this in about 20 years, correct me if I remember wrong.) This, however leaves open the question about what is the point of prayer, especially when there's something like multiple players in a contest that can pray for victory and there is only one winner. I believe this was addressed in that book as well, but I forgot the answer.
I think the problem we are having here is that you believe there is a single, conclusive truth that exists and we either get it or we don't. I simply do not believe that there is one and only way to reach God. Part of the problem is that I do not view God as an entity or an all-powerful king-like creator. I view God - in very simplistic terms - like The Force from Star Wars. I see God as the source of all things that exist in the universe. In Taoist belief, they often refer to God as water like the ocean and we are simply like glasses of water taken out of that ocean for a time and then, ultimately, returned back from whence we came. The idea that someone - say Ghandi, for example - would burn for all eternity because he was unwilling to accept the fundamental principles of Christianity is something I simply cannot accept. The idea of the judgemental God that sits on high and refuses to acknowledge those who live good and peaceful lives because they don't believe in one spiritual practice sounds, at least for me, much more like humans assigning traits to something they do not understand rather than embracing the fullness and magnitude of God. As a result, it is impossible for me to reconcile those concepts and turn my back on other beliefs that resonate with me. Just so it is out there, I do believe that Jesus was the Son of God but I by no means believe he had an exclusive line to the Almighty. All great faiths have had true "men of God" lead them at one point or another and they all have much to offer us in both a social and spiritual context. Just as I believe Jesus was "God walking among men," I believe the same of Buddha and of Muhammed and others who have blessed our planet with their presence. Whatever context in which we place those beliefs, IMO, is irrelevant. What is most important for me is not WHERE we direct our beliefs but HOW we implement them. I guess it is just the difference between absoluteness and possibility. It isn't that I dismiss your beliefs or anyone else's. I just believe more in being open to the infinite possibilities available to us than I do in being right.
Just a note on "suffering" and God. I think one of the principal ideas of all religion is that we create our own suffering through free will and that God doesn't so much allow suffering as he allows us to choose our own behavior and that often leads to suffering. Buddists believe that life is suffering and that we suffer because of want. It's complicated and I won't bother to go into something in a paragraph that theologians have spent 2500 years deciphering. But, the basic premise is that we control whether or not we suffer and we have only ourselves to blame if we do suffer.
Jeff, Just wanted to thank you for that thoughtful reply. I was afraid you might think I was challenging you. It's difficult to convey the tone of one's words/questions on here sometimes. God bless.
My pleasure. I don't consider religious discussions challenges except in the sense that they challenge me to think for myself. One of the things I TRY to practice (fail mostly, but I'm human! ) is respect for the beliefs of others and understanding that differences are what make the world a better place to live in.
I could not disagree more. We are not small and insignificant to this universe. The universe is small and insignificant to to us. Why does Jesus "exist" to this day? He "died" 2000 years ago! Jesus, like you, will always exist. That is the freakin point! The planets and sun WILL NOT continue shining in their present form, neither will we. We will always exist, but we will always change forms.
I understand what you are saying Jeff, and there are many many theological debates that go on about this today. You can study, pray and meditate and decide to be Buddhist. As a Christian I believe that when the bible says 'to know love is to know God' completely takes what you are talking about into account, providing, of course that you do know love. There are Christian theologians in mainstream denominations that don't believe in a literal, burning, fire and brimstone hell. There are those that believe that everyone is heaven bound, be they Jew, Muslim, Hindu, whatever. The idea is that Christ died for everyone. God is just. Ghandi didn't profess to be a Christian, and Hitler did. Does that mean that Hitler goes to heaven while Ghandi suffers for for eternity? If that is the case, how does that make God loving or just? I personally think the emphasis on some people going to heaven and others who don't believe in Christ going to hell isn't what it's all about. For one thing, nobody only God can judge a soul. While other Christians or people of any religeon say their's is the only way, that is their belief. They aren't the ultimate judge anyway. Another of my favorite bible passages when talking about others judging is when jesus says 'Take the log from your eye, before removing the splinter from anothers.' I think we all have enough of our own problems to work on without worrying about others. People may see a Christians efforts to live improve himself and live a loving life, and ask about it. Being invited in that instance is a great time to witness. Anyway, there are plenty of Christians who disagree with this way of looking things. So don't look at what I post and think that Christians don't believe in hell or don't believe that only Christians go to heaven. There are plenty who do believe that. But don't also think that all Christians are that way, because that isn't true either.
It's not his existence that's beyond logic; it's his attributes. I believe people can logically conclude that God exists. I don't, however, believe people can use logic alone to come to an understanding of who he is. There's a difference between the basic concept of God's existence and his more complex attributes. In some ways God is beyond logic, but I don't believe the fact that he exists is. I believe he does. I don't believe for a moment that he wants people to suffer. I believe God is thoroughly capable of preventing suffering. When people say that an all-powerful God who allows people to suffer couldn't possibly be all-loving, I believe they fail to consider something. God's love demanded that we be given the freedom to make choices. All the suffering we see in this world is neither his will nor his work; it results from people exercising their free will poorly. God could have prevented all the suffering in the world, but I don't anyone would like what that would have required. He could have stopped the suffering if he had made us basically nothing more than robots -- mere machines that always function as we were programmed. Instead, he gave us the freedom to choose. And even though we've repeatedly used our freedom to make bad choices, he's still given us an out (so to speak). Experience should tell us that the greater the possibility of joy, the greater the possibility of pain. If you doubt this principle, just look at your relationships. In order to have the kind of meaningful existence he wanted us to have, he had to allow us the freedom to choose for ourselves what course our lives would take. The fact that he allows us to do so doesn't mean that he's not all-powerful. For him to be all-poweful does not mean that he must do all things within his power. It just means that he can do them. And he could have done exactly what you suggested. The only thing that kept him from it (in my opinion) was his love for us. He wanted more for us than a "robots" existence. I think the problem is with your logic, not with God's attributes.
I just went back through some of the posts, and it appears that Jeff and I agree on something. He just said it better than I did.
I also read through my post, and this last line sounds harsher than I meant it. Please don't take it wrong, ZRB. (Sorry for this being my third post in a row.)
The reason suicide is wrong is because your body and soul supposedly doesn't belong to you, but belongs to God. It's not really up to you to end your life, it's up to God. It's like if you give some homeless guy a meal, and then he throws it back in your face. I'm sure you'd be offended. aghast, Actually it WAS a doctor (psychiatrist) that told me that, just didn't want to seem like a nut job for having spoken to a shrink, lol.
Wow. I have always enjoyed Jeff's enlightening posts on spirituality, but I'd like to welcome aghast to them. His lucid, thought-provoking posts are outstanding.
I hit "submit reply" on the previous post and nothing showed up but my quote. I don't know what happened.
Totally respect that, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Jesus is Jesus, and I don't consider myself comparable to him, that's jus the way it is for me. My belief is that when I die, my body goes into the ground, my soul goes up, and I wait for judgement day.
Wanted to say that I have enjoyed this thread more than any other in the D&D. To be able to participate and keep things civil, especially with those whose opinions are different from mine helps me gain a greater perspective about this. If only all the threads in here could be like this one...
FB, You stated that there are plenty of Christians who don't believe in hell, and that there are Christian theologians who believe that everyone will go to heaven. Can you name the ones you respect the most? And what is the biblical basis for those beliefs? I don't like to write about anyone not going to heaven or about the reality of hell, because I deserve to go to hell more than anyone, but I think it's extremely irresponsible for anyone to state that Christianity teaches (1) that there is no hell and (2) that everyone will go to heaven. Some teachings in the Bible are frightening, but we have to be honest about them. God tells us about hell in the Bible because he loves us, and because he does not want anyone to perish. The Bible does not teach that everyone will go to heaven. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." - Matthew 7:13-14 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." - John 3:16-18 "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction?" - Romans 9:22 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:14-15 We don't know the exact nature of hell, but we know from the New Testament that it is real. I'll quote J.I. Packer extensively, in order to provide many verses that address the doctrine of hell. J.I. Packer, in Concise Theology, writes: "The revelation of hell in Scripture assumes a depth of insight into divine holiness and human and demonic sinfulness that most of us do not have. However, the doctrine of hell appears in the New Testament as a Christian essential, and we are called to try to understand it as Jesus and his apostles did. The New Testament views hell (Gehanna, as Jesus calls it, the place of incineration, Matt. 5:22; 18:9) as the final abode of those consigned to eternal punishment at the Last Judgment (Matt. 25:41-46; Rev. 20:11-15). It is thought of as a place of fire and darkness (Jude 7, 13), of weeping and grinding of teeth (Matt. 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30), of destruction (2 Thess. 1:7-9; 2 Pet. 3:7; 1Thess. 5:3), and of torment (Rev. 20:10; Luke 16:23) - in other words, of total distress and misery. If, as it seems, these terms are symbolic rather than literal (fire and darkness would be mutually exclusive in literal terms), we may be sure that the reality, which is beyond our imagining, exceeds the symbol in dreadfulness. The concept of hell is of a negative relationship to God, an experience not of his absence so much as of his presence in wrath and displeasure. The experience of God's anger as a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29), his righteous condemnation for defying him and clinging to the sins he loathes and the deprivation of all that is valuable, pleasant, and worthwhile will be the shape of the experience of hell (Rom. 2:6. 8-9, 12). Scripture envisages hell as unending (Jude 13; Rev. 20:10). Speculations about a 'second chance' after death, or personal annihilation of the ungodly at some stage, have no biblical warrant. Scripture sees hell as self-chosen; those in hell will reallize that they sentenced themselves to it by loving darkness rather than light, choosing not to have their Creator as their Lord, ... rejecting Jesus rather than coming to him (John 3:18-21; Rom. 1:18, 24, 26, 28, 32; 2:8; 2 Thess. 2:9-11). The purpose of Bible teaching about hell is to make us appreciate, thankfully embrace, and rationally prefer the grace of Christ that saves us from it (Matt. 5:29-30; 13:48-50). It is really a mercy to mankind that God in Scripture is so explicit about hell. We cannot now say that we have not been warned."
I will try and be brief, because in order to talk about this even partly in depth would require way too much to post in this forum. If you would like my thoughts on it, you can e-mail me, and I will send you more in-depth explanation, which you can copy and paste in part to this thread if you want to debate in front of others. I was wrong to say that they don't believe in hell, just that they don't believe in a literal hell. I won't post verses here because I don't believe that is helpful. Me throwing my verses out and you countering with yours isn't great. But there are several in Luke, John, and Romans, in particular that can apply. The theory goes that God is love. The bible says that as well as to know love is to know God. How can Love condemn people to an eternal burning hell for eternity for choosing the wrong belief about religion. Especially when that belief is so often influenced by surroundings, upbringing, pressures, societal acceptance etc. That is one mistake in a long life. Would a loving or just God do that to somebody? If you believe that a loving and Just God would do that, why would you want to follow the teachings of that religion. I ask again Ghandi was never a Christian. Would a loving and just God burn and torture Ghandi for eternity? Is that loving or just? The theologians that I respect who agree in whole, or part to this are many. Some of them are Howard Thurman, Doug Skinner, my own mother, the late Rev. Phyllis Wheeler(Disciples of Christ). Various colleagues of hers who attended years and years of general assemblies retreats etc. who nobody would have heard of, but were studied, knowlegable people none-the-less, where these things were discussed. I didn't agree with my mother or any of these people on all things, ecumenical etc. The biblical backing goes along with what I posted before but also by taking the idea that God is love and that Jesus message is love in spite of everything and applying it to all the passages about Heaven or Hell. Without Jesus that message wouldn't have existed. Therefore it is only by Jesus that we are saved(I.E. He brought us the message of love in the face of enemies etc. and all the stuff I mentioned before about the sermon on the mount.) That also follows with the biblical line that says Those that know Love know God. It also goes with the fact that any that don't accept that are doomed for hell. Any who reject love, or don't recognize the extent of that love which Jesus brought to us are indeed bound for hell. But not one of fire, brimstone, eternal suffering in a burning pit etc. They are do to live without love, seperation from God etc. That is hell. This also follows with the biblical teachings that the Kingdom of God is within us. Again if we believe in the kind of Love that Jesus talked about we surely we truly do know love, and do know God etc. So if I say that everyone goes to Heaven, I have to admit that I don't really know who goes to heaven, what Heaven is etc. Nobody does except God, and it's God's place, alone, to make judgements on that. So I don't really like to argue about it, because it will all come down to belief, with nothing being able to prove it. But if after we die, there is some sort of moment of clarity, or the peaceful, love that Jesus talked about, then indeed we are all given heaven as a reward. This is probably all jumbled up, and incomplete sounding because I'm trying to give the abbreviated version. Sorry if you are only more confused, about the way I see things.
