Thoughts for Les: aren't we similar to the pre-championship Lakers?

Oh.my.god.

a) shaq and kobe are the two top players in nba,and phil is best coach ever

b) francis is not even in the top 5 pg,or maybe even top 10 in 5 years when is skills diminish and low iq is more apparent

c)ming is great,but not duncan or shaq.

If any team is the next "lakers" its spurs. When shaq is gone,the best center will be duncan if he plays c. They have enough cap space to sign tmac in 2004 summer should they be patient and hold their chips this summer.

parker/ginobilli/t-mac/rose/duncan

francis/mobley/posey/griffin/ming

I rest my case.

 

right. stop smoking it.

 

That's why I like it when Mobley is on the bench.

They need a tall, slasher/defender 2nd guard, or move Francis to the 2, and bring in a ball distributor (Barry).

Either way, two SG on the floor is not good.

 

No, Pre Lakers always got eliminated in 2nd round

 

I used to argue all day about Jones v Kobe. It was pretty much known even when Kobe was younger that he had the will and desire to lead and get better while Jones pretty much stayed the same slashing or 3pt shooter that he is today. I agree that the Rockets needs to get rid of players to make a team of it, but I think its too early to get that complimentary player. I do agree that the 3rd scorer needs to be effecient which is not Mobleys strong suit. I still and continue to push for SAR because he is effecient,versitile and pretty much ego less. That would move posey to the 2 and a battle for the 3 spot between nachbar,morris and rice. The bench can be filled out with the non starter 3 and guys like hawkins,norris and whoever. Jim Jackson was there for the taking earlier, but Houston or whoever seemed content on staying and not stepping on Cats toes. This team does need change in the worse way though.

 

I hear what your saying.. but first lets get to the playoffs..we cant even get to the playoffs!

 

The 97 Philly Sixers would be a better comparison IMO.

PG Allen Iverson avg 23.5 ppg, 4.10 rpg, 7.5 apg, and 2.07 spg.
SG Stackhouse avg 20.7 ppg, 4.20 rpg, 3.1 apg, and 1.15 spg.
SF Coleman avg 18.1 ppg, 10.10 rpg, 3.4 apg, and 1.32 bpg.
FF Weatherspoon avg 12.2 ppg, 8.30 rpg, and 1.05 bpg.
C Don MacLean avg 10.9 ppg, and 3.80 rpg

Could anyone believe that this was a lottory team?

What did Sixers do afterwards?

1. Hired Larry Brown.

2. Even Iverson even averaged more 7+ apg (more than Francis's any season BTW), yet moved him to SG because it's clear that he's not a natural PG.

3. Traded Stackhouse (a much younger and clearly better scorer than Mobley BTW).

 

Or the Indiana Pacers of the past few years.

In 00-01 season, they got a young big man called Jermaine O'Neal who was starting to blossom.

And they had a guard called Jalen Rose who was seen as very talented (avg 20 ppg, 5 rpg, 6 apg) but a bit of selfish and cancer-like.

They struggled with chemistry all season and finished with a 41-41 record and fell to the Philly Sixers in the 1st round of playoffs.

Next season, they continued to struggle.

Mid way through the season, they traded away that talented yet selfish guard Jalen Rose for 2 excellent role players named Ron Artest and Brad Miller and rebuild the team around that young talented big man, O'Neal.

They finished the season with a bang and got that No. 8 seed by a hair with a 42-40 record and took the eventual East champions NJ Nets to the last shot of the last game in the 1st round.

This season, of course as we all know, the young Pacers finished with 48-44 and were one of the top seeds and many people's favourites going to the East playoffs.

Cuttino Mobley = Jalen Rose?

Sorry I'm bored.

 

Great posts, I agree with Rileydog.

But do we really think Ming/Francis is as good as Shaq/Kobe? I doubt that, because Shaq is one of the best 5 C's in history, and Kobe is one of the best 5 SG's in history.

Can Ming and Francis reach that level?

I agree with your concept, but I'd go to a 3-man show rather than 2. Ming/Brand/Francis or Ming/Odom/Francis would be great. Right now, Ming/Francis/Payton would do wonders too.

What we need to do is trade a few players for one player. Is then organization willing to risk giving away a highly talented package like Cato/Griffin/Mobley for a GOOD but not SUPERSTAR player? Rice/Griffin/Mobley might even net us a good player.

What we need to do is play Francis with another PG, or a SG who genuinely knows how to handle the ball, as well as shift a larger part of the offense (not necessarily scoring) to Ming.

Personally, I believe Brand is perfect to be that 3rd player. He brings defense, shotblocking, toughness, and complimentary scoring as well as go-to scoring. He's a team guy, he's young, and he has a burning desire to win.

It's been talked about thousands of times. Hand the Clippers a paper with the Rockets roster on it, cross out Ming and Francis, then ask them what they want. If they want picks, trade a player for a pick in the range they want.

As far as I'm concerned, once we have Brand, Ming and Francis, anyone can fill the other 2 positions.

It's time to really launch this team into contender status, and we have to take the risks. It's also time to give Francis and Ming more shots, and make the other players better compliment them. I don't care if we have to rebuild chemistry, the ceiling on this team is just not high enough to take us to contender status.

 

Sane,

I'd be ok with either Odom or Brand as the third guy on this team. Neither of them require that many shots and both of them do many other things well aside from scoring. The thing with Brand is that of his 14 shots per game, roughly 5 come from offensive rebounds, therefore he is only taking about 9 shots per game in the actual offense. In this scenario though, you still have to get a playmaker to allow Francis to score more. Lamar Odom only takes about 12 shots per game and brings excellent rebounding, ball handling and passing for his position so that scenario would work as well. Going this route, I'd probably get a shooter to put in at the 2 guard and would want to re-sign Posey to provide a high energy backup at both wing positions or start at 2 guard.

I know you are opposed to Andre Miller, but I'd be happy with him as well. Despite being on a completely disorganized Clippers team, he still averaged 7 APG on 2.6 TO per game which is very good, plus he doesnt require many shots and plays solid defense. Miller has played in the two worst organizations in the NBA thus far and still has been pretty solid; I think playing with Francis and Ming would really prove his true potential. Others I would look at are Tinsley, Parker, Snow, Brent Barry, etc. Also, a player like Jon Barry or Eric Piatkowski would be a nice fit as well.

 

Just to clear up some misconceptions. The subtraction of Van Exel, Jones, and Campbell WAS NOT the reason for the Lakers' rise to the top, or any improvement in Shaq and/or Bryant's games. Van Exels' last year on the team was '97-'98. Campbell started one game in '98-'99, and was traded, Eddie Jones in 20. The Lakers' record in '97-98 with Van Exel, Jones, and Campbell, was 61-21, a .744 winning percentage. The next year, after the departure of NVE, Jones, and EC, their record was 31-19, a .620 winning percentage. Can you imagine how this board would react if the Rockets shipped off that many key players, and their winning percentage dropped that drastically the next year?

Kobe Bryant only started 1 game in '97-'98, the 61-win season. He started EVERY game and played 38 minutes a game the next year, while the team regressed. In other words, in Kobe Bryant's breakout season, the Lakers as a team got worse. This was similar to the Rockets' situation this year, where they went with young and/or new guys for heavy minutes, i.e. Griffin, Posey, and Ming. The point is these guys need more time together.

 

The Freak, I think you missed the main point.

REGARDLESS OF their brilliant regular season records, the LA Lakers were 1st round or 2nd round folder with NVE, Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell (even with such a brilliant center named Shaq). The trade of these guys FREED UP more minutes and shot opportunities and SPEEDED UP the development for Kobe Bryant. While the team regressed for 1 year, Kobe IMPROVED and DEVELOPED as a player. The down year certainly ultimately paid off at the end as it's the improved Kobe Bryant (with Shaq of course) who led the team to 3-time NBA championship and counting which is something NVE, Jones and Campbell FAILED to do so.

If trading off Mobley/Griffin etc can have the same effect on Ming as it's on Kobe, I don't think we mind 1 down year, do we?

 

Also, one other point which Freak so conveniently leaves out.... The trade (Jones and Campbell for Rice) was made in the MIDDLE of the lockout shortened 50 game season of 98-99. Jones and Campbell were still on that team for 20 games of that season. Thus, the Lakers had to get adjusted to Glen Rice in a span of 30 games; hmmm, no wonder they went 31-19. Can you imagine what folks like Freak who always want unlimited time and patience would be saying if the team made a blockbuster trade and only 30 games were left in the season? I think the tone would be asking for more timeb/c the team made a huge change in midstream as opposed to anger that the win pct fell. The following season, which was Kobe and Shaq's first w/o Jones and Campbell, they go from the sweep fodder of the Spurs to champions.

 

MManal,

I agree with your response. The only reason I leave out Andre Miller is because I look at a backcourt of Miller/Francis and immediately think of Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady. I doubt we will ever beat a team with any of those 2 players as long as we have such a short, and bad defensive backcourt. Let's face it, Francis didn't show any defense despite putting in the effort and also mixing in some zone. Also, Miller is decent at best, but he'll have to be defending 2's. I just feel that we need someone in the backcourt with playoff experience, who plays defense, can defend 2's, and will keep this team focused, which is why I included an ageing Gary Payton int he scenarios.

Brand would be very difficult to get, but if it meant waiting a year, then so be it. I'm more than happy to go into next season with minor deals, as long as i believe that we will surely get Brand the following season.

Right now, this team needs a mold. A shape. The changes need to start small with players like Jeff Mcinnis, Eric Piatowski, PJ Brown, or Tyrone Lue. Just litte deals to clean up the CLEARLY incompatible players. Moochie Norris and Cuttino Mobley, as well as one bigger contract such as MoT or Cato needs to go.

What we do know is that this team will make the playoffs next year if we leave it this way. Sure, we'll be happy. But the ceiling is low, and our franchise players' potentials won't ber eached until they're put in a position where they have freedom to win games. But the good thing is, we know what we have in Yao now, and we know what we have in Steve. A player like Brand, taking 9 shots a game, would be brilliant. I mean, seriously, if he scores 5 times off of offensive rebounds, and him and Ming shoot better than 50% from the field, then we have 2 constants.

Great teams have constants. Malone, Stockton, Shaq, Duncan, Nowitzki, Jordan, Pippen. These guys RARELY had bad/have bad nights. What does this mean? This means rancis is the difference between us being a superb team or being a decent team. But we'll always be decent, because Ming and Brand will always bring 35+ points, 15+ rebounds, 4+ blocks. That's the minimum. With our look, we have a streaky Francis, Mobley, MoT, Griffin, Posey. Basically, only Ming was consistent, and that wore off with fatigue.


My choices would be like this:

1. Brand
2. Payton
3. Odom
4. Andre Miller (NOT Max)

 

Sane,

I agree mostly, except a few things. Personally, I dont really have an issue with Francis matching up against Kobe if we go the Miller route. Take a look at the kind of numbers players like Kobe, Finley, Ray Allen, etc already put up on this team. Do you honestly believe it could get any worse with Francis defending them? Do you logically think Kobe would drop 50 a night on Francis? My bigger concern defensively is denying penetration at the 1 spot which Steve simply cant do and Miller is pretty solid at. Its much easier to help defend on a 2 guard posting up than a PG flying down the lane. A PG flying down the lane throws the entire defense off and puts your big men in foul trouble. Also, if the Rockets go the Odom route, I wouldnt at all mind signing Jon Barry with the exception b/c he is a pretty decent defender against PGs.

Also, the Rockets simply are not going to make the playoffs if they stand a pat hand I will guarantee you that much. Not only will the Suns continue improving but also the Warriors and Grizzlies will be a whole lot better next season. The Rockets only shot at improvement is Griffin and Yao, but with a shot jacking Cuttino in the backcourt and Griffin's lazy attitude, you can put a pretty low ceiling on that. Once the Rockets move Cuttino and Yao gets enough shots, sky's the limit.

 

Very astute comparison. This very much looks like our present team.

Well done Newgirl (are you really a girl?).

 

Odom
Payton
A. Miller
Brand

Brand brings good numbers on paper. But he's not a distributor or a floor leader. Rox's biggest problem is the flow, the motion and the decision making in offense. We need a smart guy.