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This team is staring at the Abyss for the next 3-5 years

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by daggy, Apr 25, 2014.

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kfmfe04 Member

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troll thread

#61 kfmfe04, Apr 25, 2014

BonziWellsGOAT Member

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daggy said: ↑

Let me make a couple of predictions:

1) Harden is going to shoot lights out in one of the next two games. I feel 95% confident of this prediction. (the 5% being maybe Harden is even more mentally soft than I think... which is ... unlikely)
2) They'll still lose that game because other people will be out of rhythm, especially Dwight. I feel 80% confident of this prediction (the 20% being maybe the Blazers will play a crappy game in the same game, anything can happen for one game)
3) They will lose the series. I feel 99.99999999% confident of this prediction. (the almost nonexistent chance is... there's always the chance of major injuries, though I wish it upon no one).

Now...my prediction in the title:

4) This team will get into the playoffs and won't get past the second round for... at least 3-5 years, so we are staring at the abyss in the basketball sense. This prediction I feel 100% confident in.

Lin can be traded, Asik & Parsons can be traded, players like Beverly can be found, Mchale can be fired, Dwight is just going to ride along, he's the ride along type and he has joined the Rockets late so he can't be the Alpha dog... this team STARTS AND ENDS with Harden. That doesn't mean he shoulders all the credits and blames himself, it just means if he's not fixed first, then no amount of fixing on other parts of the team matters.

I don't think he can be "fixed" in many years to come. Countless others have talked about the flaws of his game, I just want to point out a few things that I think is very self-evident:

1) He's still in that stage of life where he thinks accomplishing things with a beard and style is more important than accomplishing things.
2) He doesn't want to face the truth, which is he has glaring holes in his game that must be addressed... and unfortunately if you are the cornerstone of the team with Championship aspirations, you don't have to be exceptional in everything you do, but you can NOT have glaring holes in any part of your game. Dirk only won after he completely understood that fact.
3) He doesn't really want to be coached.

In other words he's highly immature. This is the worst case scenario for any team, you get a star that's immature. Because if he's not talented you can get rid of him, but you see his talent and potential and your fans adore his shooting so you can't really get rid of him, your coach has no power over him because the guy knows he's the superstar and the coach really can't do anything.

If you get a friendly coach you can't fix his bad habits, if you get a tough coach with no rings Harden will simply go "f*** you" and not listen. If you get a tough coach with rings... well... there aren't any of them available out there.

So basically you have to wait for Harden to see the light himself. Trust me, that takes YEARS OF LOSING AND GROWING UP. One day he has to be tired of losing AND realizes himself is a big part of the reason... that day might never come, it's definitely not going to come in the next 3 years.

It's simple human nature.

Oh, btw... to shoot a three pointer while down 1 is okay, you shoot the shots you feel you are most comfortable with... but to shoot that three pointer with 17 seconds still on the clock?

I challenge all of you to find ONE Superstar who's won championships in the past two decades (go back to MJ, or go back to Bird & Magic) who has done anything remotely as boneheaded as that.

That shows deep down inside Harden there's a level of boneheadedness that's part of his DNA, that ain't something that can be easily coached out of the guy... it's part of who he is.

This team... while exciting to watch at times, is hopeless. If you don't want to die from heartaches, just lower your expectation and be very happy when they make the playoffs and consider everything else bonuses, that way you can live longer and thank me later.
Click to expand...

#62 BonziWellsGOAT, Apr 25, 2014
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daggy said: ↑

I know that word will get people riled up.

But as a long time basketball fan, to me there's nothing worse than a second tier team that's forever in a playoff but don't ever go very far.

You don't rebuild, you don't win. Every year you get excited thinking some miracles are going to happen and every year you end up with heart break. That's "a deep, immeasurable space, gulf, or cavity; vast chasm." for me.

You can of course disagree. Trust me, I know how you feel... I think many people get very frustrated with my thread because deep down they are very afraid that my predictions come true.
Click to expand...

85-90 Chicago Bulls. That team, with some improvements, turned into one of the greatest teams ever. No one can predict the future.

#63 TheJet, Apr 25, 2014
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daggy said: ↑

Let me make a couple of predictions:

1) Harden is going to shoot lights out in one of the next two games. I feel 95% confident of this prediction. (the 5% being maybe Harden is even more mentally soft than I think... which is ... unlikely)
2) They'll still lose that game because other people will be out of rhythm, especially Dwight. I feel 80% confident of this prediction (the 20% being maybe the Blazers will play a crappy game in the same game, anything can happen for one game)
3) They will lose the series. I feel 99.99999999% confident of this prediction. (the almost nonexistent chance is... there's always the chance of major injuries, though I wish it upon no one).

Now...my prediction in the title:

4) This team will get into the playoffs and won't get past the second round for... at least 3-5 years, so we are staring at the abyss in the basketball sense. This prediction I feel 100% confident in.

Lin can be traded, Asik & Parsons can be traded, players like Beverly can be found, Mchale can be fired, Dwight is just going to ride along, he's the ride along type and he has joined the Rockets late so he can't be the Alpha dog... this team STARTS AND ENDS with Harden. That doesn't mean he shoulders all the credits and blames himself, it just means if he's not fixed first, then no amount of fixing on other parts of the team matters.

I don't think he can be "fixed" in many years to come. Countless others have talked about the flaws of his game, I just want to point out a few things that I think is very self-evident:

1) He's still in that stage of life where he thinks accomplishing things with a beard and style is more important than accomplishing things.
2) He doesn't want to face the truth, which is he has glaring holes in his game that must be addressed... and unfortunately if you are the cornerstone of the team with Championship aspirations, you don't have to be exceptional in everything you do, but you can NOT have glaring holes in any part of your game. Dirk only won after he completely understood that fact.
3) He doesn't really want to be coached.

In other words he's highly immature. This is the worst case scenario for any team, you get a star that's immature. Because if he's not talented you can get rid of him, but you see his talent and potential and your fans adore his shooting so you can't really get rid of him, your coach has no power over him because the guy knows he's the superstar and the coach really can't do anything.

If you get a friendly coach you can't fix his bad habits, if you get a tough coach with no rings Harden will simply go "f*** you" and not listen. If you get a tough coach with rings... well... there aren't any of them available out there.

So basically you have to wait for Harden to see the light himself. Trust me, that takes YEARS OF LOSING AND GROWING UP. One day he has to be tired of losing AND realizes himself is a big part of the reason... that day might never come, it's definitely not going to come in the next 3 years.

It's simple human nature.

Oh, btw... to shoot a three pointer while down 1 is okay, you shoot the shots you feel you are most comfortable with... but to shoot that three pointer with 17 seconds still on the clock?

I challenge all of you to find ONE Superstar who's won championships in the past two decades (go back to MJ, or go back to Bird & Magic) who has done anything remotely as boneheaded as that.

That shows deep down inside Harden there's a level of boneheadedness that's part of his DNA, that ain't something that can be easily coached out of the guy... it's part of who he is.

This team... while exciting to watch at times, is hopeless. If you don't want to die from heartaches, just lower your expectation and be very happy when they make the playoffs and consider everything else bonuses, that way you can live longer and thank me later.
Click to expand...

So the Rockets are down 0-2 and while I'm just as shocked as many on here are, disappointed that Houston didn't get both wins or at least 1 at home......

The Rockets are gonna be pretty much lousy for the next 3-5 years? Nah! A coaching change , some defense and a legit pg with new blood off the bench might do wonders!!!

#64 pass_to_Hakeem, Apr 25, 2014
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dobro1229 said: ↑

A. Its hard to see the Rockets not at least stay as competitive in the regular season if fully or close to full health.

B. Its hard to see the West staying as competitive with the bottom of the playoff pack where a 7th seed actually can beat a 2 seed, and an 8th seed has a player like Dirk to give a team like Dallas a shot at the 1 seed. Those kind of things dont happen normally in the playoffs.

The Rockets will make something between incremental improvements to major improvements as soon as next year, and 4 of the Rockets 5 best players best years are 2 to 3 years ahead of them (Harden, Parsons, Jones).

Also keep in mind that Morey kept this roster flexible without using either mid-level exceptions, and kept all contracts other than Harden & Howard with a short expiration date. I'm 100% confident that THIS is not the talent level that will be on the Rockets roster 2 years from now.

Add the roster improvements (internally and externally), more favorable match-ups in the future, and a potential coaching upgrade in the future to get better playoff production, and its hard to see the Rockets staying EXACTLY where they are or declining.

I disagree heavily with the OP. The Rockets might not win it all, but they will continue to be in the thick of it for the next 3-5 years... NOT in any sort of Abyss.
Click to expand...

Disagreement is good. I hope you are right.

The only thing is my post already includes all those things, and I agree the Rockets will appear to be "in the thick of it" for years to come.

But I think it's all going to be an illusion unless some amazing coaches come out of no where...

#65 daggy, Apr 25, 2014
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TheJet said: ↑

85-90 Chicago Bulls. That team, with some improvements, turned into one of the greatest teams ever. No one can predict the future.
Click to expand...

Are you seriously comparing Harden to MJ...

I know you are just horsing with me, right?

#66 daggy, Apr 25, 2014
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Clutch said: ↑

Nah. Rockets will always strive to make improvements.
Click to expand...

Strving, but not necessarily achieving.

#67 Carl Herrera, Apr 25, 2014

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TheJet said: ↑

I'm sorry, this one just made me laugh. I've read fortune cookies with more facts than this post. Transcendent talent? Dedication and fire? MJ had those things his entire career. IMO he's the GOAT. Why did it take him seven years to win a ring?
Click to expand...

Again... you are really comparing Harden to MJ???

Trust me, if Harden had MJ's talent and MJ's work ethic and he shoots 20% for 2 year straight I wouldn't say a thing anywhere.

If you can show me Harden has MJ's potential, then I'll gladly retract my whole post... lol

#68 daggy, Apr 25, 2014
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With McHale at the helm this team is only operating at 70% capacity. I see a brighter future once he's gone. I see the roster being pretty flexible with lots of movable pieces so all is not lost.

#69 beastlyball, Apr 25, 2014
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daggy said: ↑

Again... you are really comparing Harden to MJ???

Trust me, if Harden had MJ's talent and MJ's work ethic and he shoots 20% for 2 year straight I wouldn't say a thing anywhere.

If you can show me Harden has MJ's potential, then I'll gladly retract my whole post... lol
Click to expand...

I think the point is that even the greatest ever needed lots of time and lots of team upgrades to get where he got.

No one here is guaranteeing Harden CAN get where he needs to be and that the team CAN make the moves necessary. Just that it's certainly possible and WAY to early to say its IMPOSSIBLE.

#70 jordnnnn, Apr 25, 2014
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TheJet said: ↑

85-90 Chicago Bulls. That team, with some improvements, turned into one of the greatest teams ever. No one can predict the future.
Click to expand...

Wow! Are you seriously saying that the Rockets have a Michael Jordan type player now or in the future? I have always seriously doubted that Morey's analytics will translate into championship basketball and what was really disgusting was he was elevated to a basketball god by many posters. But this reference to the Jordan Bulls as a possibility of replicating itself in the future is truly a case of the imagination going over the abyss.

#71 albuster, Apr 25, 2014
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beastlyball said: ↑

With McHale at the helm this team is only operating at 70% capacity. I see a brighter future once he's gone. I see the roster being pretty flexible with lots of movable pieces so all is not lost.
Click to expand...

I think McHale should be let go.

I think the team will improve somewhat.

I don't think any other coaches will make a huge difference. I think there are only two coaches in the recent time of NBA can really handle and improve Harden & Dwight, which are Phil Jackson & Pat Riley, because they are master manipulator of egos.

I think Pop and Doc may have a chance, they may but they may not because they rely more on the stars self motivation.

I think everybody else is going to have a very tough time with Harden & Dwight, the coaches don't push enough then the duo won't play hard, they push too hard the two will tune them out. Dwight has a track record of that and Harden is showing clear signs of that kind of behavior.

It's not impossible, but it's a tall order.

#72 daggy, Apr 25, 2014
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Harden is just another Melo. Won't win as the first option

#73 shortfuse3, Apr 25, 2014

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daggy said: ↑

Are you seriously comparing Harden to MJ...

I know you are just horsing with me, right?
Click to expand...

No, it has nothing to do with comparing players. I'm using your own criteria applied to a different team.

You said a transcendent player with dedication and fire would win a title "soon". It took MJ seven years. His Bulls teams were always in the playoffs but never won it all. Again, per your logic clearly they were staring into an abyss for five years.

#74 TheJet, Apr 25, 2014
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jordnnnn said: ↑

I think the point is that even the greatest ever needed lots of time and lots of team upgrades to get where he got.

No one here is guaranteeing Harden CAN get where he needs to be and that the team CAN make the moves necessary. Just that it's certainly possible and WAY to early to say its IMPOSSIBLE.
Click to expand...

That's why I put a time limit on my predication.

Deep down I think Harden will never smell the Finals, but who knows what's going to happen 10 years down the road. He may go through some personal catharsis and become a completely clean shaven serious dude, some new crazy talent can join this team and take over...

But in the next 3-5 years...while the duo have their contracts run out, this team is not breaking through the second round and after 3-5 years we may need to go through a rebuild... how much worse can things get?

Notice how all the posters who dispute my theory has offered no counter points, the only point has been "how do you know? you can't be so certain"... no one has pointed out bright spots in Harden's game or behavior that refute my point...how sad is that? Essentially everyone's not arguing my prediction, they just can't accept it and hold out hopes...

#75 daggy, Apr 25, 2014
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I guess I wasn't clear enough. OP was using a vague and totally unfounded set of criteria for predicting the next five years for the Rockets. I took that same criteria and applied it to MJ's first years with the Bulls. OP himself said a truly transcendent player would win a ring quickly. My point was that even the GOAT didn't do that, so why abandon ship on this Rockets team?

I realize I'm most likely spinning my wheels here but some of those claims just chaffed my hide.

#76 TheJet, Apr 25, 2014
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BonziWellsGOAT said: ↑

Click to expand...

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

#77 bmd, Apr 25, 2014
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TheJet said: ↑

No, it has nothing to do with comparing players. I'm using your own criteria applied to a different team.

You said a transcendent player with dedication and fire would win a title "soon". It took MJ seven years. His Bulls teams were always in the playoffs but never won it all. Again, per your logic clearly they were staring into an abyss for five years.
Click to expand...

My original post said something about such players will definitely win one in their "lifetime... probably pretty soon".

Right? I certainly didn't say they'll win one right away.

And that post you are referring to was a response to an earlier post questioning why I would feel confident predicting a player's trajectory. So my point was with some players you would feel very confident that they'd win, some players you aren't so sure, some players you feel very confident they won't win. Such feelings may not be one hundred percent accurate, but they are not so completely baseless as well.

#78 daggy, Apr 25, 2014

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Honestly... Answer this... Who actually believes the Rockets will win a championship without adding a 3rd star (Carmelo)?

We are good (need to prove it by winning this series)... but seriously.. who actually thought this was even a possibility with Kevin Durant and Lebron James in this league and the need to have more stars on a team...

I just ask fans to be realistic and respectful for what Daryl Morey has done for this team. Appreciate the roster for what it is. We are here in the playoffs, because of Harden and Howard. This isn't the team that will probably win it all, but we need tribulation to grow. Heat didn't even win during the first big 3 season.

#79 Rockets FTW, Apr 25, 2014
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daggy said: ↑

That's why I put a time limit on my predication.

Deep down I think Harden will never smell the Finals, but who knows what's going to happen 10 years down the road. He may go through some personal catharsis and become a completely clean shaven serious dude, some new crazy talent can join this team and take over...

But in the next 3-5 years...while the duo have their contracts run out, this team is not breaking through the second round and after 3-5 years we may need to go through a rebuild... how much worse can things get?

Notice how all the posters who dispute my theory has offered no counter points, the only point has been "how do you know? you can't be so certain"... no one has pointed out bright spots in Harden's game or behavior that refute my point...how sad is that? Essentially everyone's not arguing my prediction, they just can't accept it and hold out hopes...
Click to expand...

This is me officially arguing your prediction.

1) You're nuts. I probably should stop there but I won't.
2) This is the first year James and Dwight have played together. After a rough start the team started showing chemistry and was playing at a high level unless Sampson left.
3) Young team. Youngest in the playoff, yes? There is room to grow, yes even in five years.
4) Overcoming mediocre coaching. I think most of us have come around to realizing McHale isn't the force we need to guide, manage and teach this young team.
5) Harden. He's immature. He's NOT MJ. He's not Durant. He needs to show us that he can do in the playoffs what he's done during the season. Again, we. have. time. Anyone as good as James has been in the vast majority of his games has a good chance of playing well again.

And my two cents: You can have a good season and not win a ring. Life's the journey not the destination. Winning it all is fantastic, but if you consider any non-championship season a life crushing disappointment then you're in for a long road my friend.

#80 TheJet, Apr 25, 2014

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