Well said... I don't understand how a coach can be considered good because he exposed one players weakness. Rudy was totally aware of Francis' weaknesses and constantly was working on them. While JVG was focused on a system and constantly try to change Francis into something he wasn't. Basketball is an instinctive game. It depends on rhythm and flow and thinking to much destroys that. Yes a system is important but only as a base in starting that flow that setsup strong points e.g. screen after screen to free up Kobe or inside out to take advantage of Hakeem the system works best when it takes advantage of the natural abilities of your best players. Or system only attempted to take advantage of Yao's skills, which was good but it almost totally disregarded Francis's skills which was bad. Francis has the ability to break down players one on one but that was totally unacceptable in JVG's system. A better coach would have utilized both Yao and Francis. Rudy clearly had more success than JVG in that category. And don't tell me but JVG made the playoffs. If Rudy stayed healthy the Rockets would have made the playoffs and he did that with a 1st year weak and confused Yao he had no clue most of the season and no Jim Jackson. The Rockets were definitely much better on paper last year and yet only made the playofs because of the dismantling of Utah and Phoenix. There is no question about it Francis is a challenge to coach and under JVG the best thing to do was to trade him. But there is also no question about it while JVG was successful at exposing Francis's faults he did a lousy job of amplifying his strengths. JVG totally squashed the best parts of Francis. Until the playoffs when Francis decided "screw you coach I want to win". He, "not Yao" (please Yao fans no hating, I think Yao will be a star and will only get better but last playoffs wasn't his best games), is the reason we played the Lakers as good as we did and he did that against JVG's better wishes. And he was playing like Francis of old and not stuck in JVG's system of constantly thinking and thinking. Don't get me wrong I think the McGrady trade was an awesome deal but if JVG doesn't figure out a way to mix both Yao and Tracy into a natural flowing system the results will be the same as last year. Here's hoping JVG can change his colors.
Define, "constantly working on them." Allowing Francis to run free? If anything, Rudy would have been more interested in trying to develop and bring along Yao. Francis was stagnate in his yearly improvements; same rookie mistakes in his 2-3rd year. And his 4th wasn't better. True. But what if that player's instincts are based on weak fundamentals? *One-on-one* WAS allowed. It was that, *go-one-on-one-MOST-of-the-time* that was quashed. We had that guy Yao, remember him? Why didn't JVG try the "Rudy method?" It didn't work. The last option (after 4 years of Francis ball) was to see if Francis could play the point guard and actually do point guard things. We figured out that Francis was not a point guard, but rather a 6'3" shooting guard. Rudy had more success? In what? Allowing Francis's stats to be higher, yet struggling to establish a team that played as a unit? Rudy couldn't get Francis to play that way, so he gave up. His approach was just to let Francis do what he wanted, i.e. "amplify his strengths" because that the only way that Francis knows how to play. Looks good on the stat board, but will never win us a championship. Woulda coulda....as far as the play-offs. Amplifying Francis's strengths WILL NOT WORK ON THIS TEAM. Francis has to be the center of the offensive focus. Anything else will neglect the other players on THIS team. Especially a post-player like Yao. Francis is NOT a complete player. McGrady is more complete. So is Yao. Problem solved. Orlando can *amplify* what ever they want. Hmmm, and *IF* JVG improves the team? Guess you'll realize the common denominator was that turnover prone point guard. Sure, you'll be able to credit McGrady and Yao. But don't ya think that *traded point guard* would have ANYTHING to do with it? Maybe just a little bit? And then, once and for all you'll see that "amplifying" Francis was never going to work on the Yao-centered Rockets team.
David S, I don't have the time nor the desire to answer all your points. First I never said Francis was a good fit for this team. Francis is a tough player to coach because heseems to play best when he plays a little out of control. The problem was determining where that line of control out of control was. Jvg had no idea so he wanted to disallow it completely and in the end thought it was best to trade him. Fine I have no problem with that. In fact I am excited about the trade. But as far as coaching Francis and the effectiveness of JVG as opposed to Rudy well that's the issue. You clearly have an opinion that JVG did a good job and I think he did a bad job. I think Rudy did a much better job but of course you disagree. You were happy we got rid of Rudy and I believe JVG for Rudy is a blunder, a very bad Decision by Les!!! I know no facts that I have to say will change your opinion not even the 2 championships, the olympic gold Medal, and the silver medal in the world championships with a bunch of scrubs, a feat that George Karl or Larry Brown could not achieve. Nor the fact that time and time again NBA coaches say Rudy is one of the best motivators and basketball minds in the league. So keep your opinion I won't try to change. But try to convince me that JVG did as good a job with Francis. That's a crock of ****. The Rockets looked their best last season in the playoffs against the Lakers and that effort was in part (a big part) due to Francis's out of the ordinary play defying JVG's system. True when you give Francis free reign he makes mistakes. But he also makes big plays. But somehow you forget 3 years ago when we won as many games as last year NBA games with noone but Francis and an old Hakeem. And lest you try not to give Francis any credit for that season. The next year he misses 23 games and we lose all 23. Yes he is a tough player to coach if you try to control him to much if becomes average at best and if you give him free reign he becomes out of control. It's hard to know how to balance that, but balance is what you need and Rudy did a much better job with that than JVG. Much better! As for Yao there is not a better big man coach than Rudy. If you disagree with me you are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong! Yao was a mess when he came into the League and while he inproved drastically under Rudy he was still not ready for primetime and ready to dominant. Last year he came into camp much more ready and this year I expect him to even be better. That is Yao, he is a talent he will only get better under JVG, only he would have gotten better under Rudy. Yes that is my opinion but it is an opinion based on years of coaching and studying basketball and watching the NBA. As for JVG, I don't like him I think he is a devious backstabbing weasel, but that is just my personal opinion on his character and has nothing to do with his coaching ability. As a coach he is a good enough He has a strong mind for defense. And an average mind for offense by NBA standards. I think his biggest problem is he isn't a motivator and he isn't a players coach and isn't flexible. He doesn't know how to adjust to his talent. The Rockets have a very talented team and we should do well this year and I am excited about watching Yao and TMac. I only hope JVG can change his colors. If he does wonderful I can only dream of returning to championship days.
"I don't have the time nor the desire to answer all your points. " *continues on to a 1000 word rant* lol BTW i actually agree with your assessment on JVG. I don't know about "devious backstabbing weasel", but the coaching part i do agree. Come to think of it, he looks alot more Panda than weasel... As for being a motivator and flexible, Rudy by far has the advantage in those aspects. While JVG is a much better tactician. Regarding last year, even without JVG's inflexible self, it would have been near impossible to mesh the playing style of Francis and Ming. You even admitted yourself they were a bad fit. In the end JVG chose Ming, and the offense that fit Ming the best. I don't think there was much of a middle ground since their playing style was so polarizing. Even with Rudy in that situation, i don't think it would have been much better. In fact for those of us that can remember back that far, the offense for Yao's first year was damn near unwatchable. *Dribble, dribble, dribble, iso, iso, iso, holds it, holds it..............hoooolds it.............*
I don't think in terms of *JVG did a good job coaching Francis.* I don't look at it that way. I call it a test. The coaching staff was trying to see if Francis could play better with Yao and gang. As a team. As time went on....I started calling it *a trade waiting to happen.* On the other hand, I think that JVG did a better job TRYING to mesh the players together and make the team more Yao-centric. I really think that was needed. Here's how you define "Rudy did a better job" ---> Francis got higher stats and was more involved (Yeah, and?). That's it. Sure, you can say, he was the main option, and Rudy/Francis achieved similar records. But the glaring reason you think "Rudy did a better job" was because of Francis stats and involvement. Not because of any substantive improvement in turnovers or team play. I agree! Rudy was very good at motivating players. And he was quite good at coaching journeymen from the CBA. And he was very good at coaching seasoned veterans like Hakeem and Drelxer. And he was very good in teaching players that learn fast. See, that's the thing. Francis was an enigma for BOTH Rudy and JVG. They both couldn't figure him out. So, it's not that I say that JVG did a "better job" at coaching Francis (stat wise). Or that Rudy's credentials aren't worthy of anything. It's that the common denominator is that Francis WAS THE PROBLEM -- for both coaches and for our team, in the long run. Think about it. Again, what you call "looked their best" was the old Rockets in which Francis was controlling the ball and taking more shots. That's fine, for Francis. And that type of plan CAN win *some games.* But he DOES make an inordinate amount of those *mistakes* (not just mistakes; he is called turnover PRONE around the league for a reason). John Stockton made "mistakes." Steve Nash makes "mistakes." Sam Cassell makes "mistakes." Understand the difference? That's why those "big plays" you talk about are not WORTH the extra "mistakes." Not in the long run; even if he can win some games playing that way. He loses games playing that way too. It's just not worth it. Unless we don't want to move to the next level. Rudy coach Yao? Sure. No problem. That's not the main issue. The main issue that you think JVG did a bad job trying to teach Francis and that Rudy could have done a better job -- strange, since Rudy had 4 years, and JVG had only 1 year. The deal was that JVG understood that Francis wasn't going to work out. It just took JVG one year to figure it out (5 for CD and Les). And it took Rudy 4 years (partially due to the novelty of having a new player -- a rookie Francis -- and fans more willing to keep the "star" player as opposed to the old coach). Now, the outcome probably would have been different if we DID NOT draft Yao - maybe Amare instead. Francis probably would still be the main option and we wouldn't have traded him. Part of the reason we traded Francis in the first place was we already had Yao to fall back on and there was a concerted effort from management to move toward a Yao-centered team. It was circumstantial.
There is no changing you is there. You refuse to see reality. You are convinced JVG is a better coach than Rudy and I am convinced you don't know much about basketball. How can you possibly think Rudy was not aware of Francis shortcomings. That's just stupid. What did you want him to do, cut him. Nobody was offering McGrady for him. So he coached him. And he did a good job. At least acknowledge that! Acknowledge that 4 years ago the rockets had as good a record as last year with nowhere near the talent and that Francis was a big part of that. Acknowledge that the Rockets payed respectably against the Lakers lastyear and that was more because Of Francis's play morethan any other player. And don't start telling me how Rudy let Francis run the team even with Yao out there. Yao was not the player his Rookie year he was last year. Not even close. He was terrible in the beginning and he was weak and he was fatigued. He improved over the season and as he improved Rudy made him more of the the focal point of the team. But he was still very inconsistent. And somebody had to score. Of course you feel Rudy should have dumped Francis like JVG dumped Eddie. Well let's just agree to disagree. Oh and by the way Francis will improve the Magic much more than TMac will improve the Rockets. But don't blame Tmac for that one, blame JVG. Oh and as for Rudy many of the polls are predicting they won't even make the playoffs but watch how Rudy coaches that team to second round in the Playoffs. They will beat everyone except Minny and S.A. Of course you will still believe than that JVG is abetter coach. Which is why I have nothing else to say to you. -Adios
"How can you possibly think Rudy was not aware of Francis shortcomings?" Did I say that he didn't? Rudy was aware of Francis's shortcomings, he just didn't know how to improve on them. Four years! Come on man! "What did you want him to do, cut him? Nobody was offering McGrady for him." Did I say that there was? If you read my post I told you that the trade was CIRCUMSTANTIAL and we probably would have kept Francis if Yao wasn't drafted; under Rudy. That's BEFORE Rudy being fired. Hello?! "So he coached him. And he did a good job. At least acknowledge that!" I did. Didn't you even read my post? Geessh! "Oh and by the way Francis will improve the Magic much more than TMac will improve the Rockets." Magic 45 win Rockets 52 wins Wow, impressive! Magic or LA. They will both be competitive. But they are in the way of the Rockets. That's all I care about now. Go Rockets! P.S. Old Man Rock, you've been a Rudy cheerleader since the old days. And a Francis cheerleader since his rookie season. All this talk about how you *know* about basketball really makes me wonder what type of knowledge you think you have. I mean, you actually love the way Francis plays. That should tell us something! Nevertheless the end the Rudy/Francis era has happened (5 painful years). And the JVG/McGrady/Yao era will begin. The old way of playing will be a thing of the past. Move on, OLD man Rock.
Hell, I love Rudy as much as the next guy, but the Midwest Division (you know, the teams we play a majority of our games against) was a little tougher last year than it was in 2000-01. The division accounted for 347 wins last year, and EVERY team was above .500 (the next closest division had 4 teams under .500). 6 of 7 teams made the playoffs, too. In 2000-01, the Midwest teams won 319 games and only 4 of the 7 teams made the playoffs. JVG had his hands full last year and still made the playoffs in his first year with the Rockets (unfortunately, something Rudy hadn't done since 1998-99). Therefore, I'm inclined to see what he can do this year. If he falters, then fine, by all means, jump on him and continue the b****ing and moaning. But first, give him the freaking chance to fail.
Van Gundy's system resulted in diminished offensive output from his teams for several more years than that. Despite that fact, you refuse to acknowledge the possibility of a contradiction of having that guy coaching one of the leading scorers in the league...
edc, read my post. If you want to talk about JVG's tenure with McGrady, you might want to let him finish his second year. You said you would. We can talk about the "contradiction" then. Now read below and you'll notice it was talking about Rudy coaching Francis (time to work on his shortcomings). Not JVG tenure with McGrady. "Did I say that he didn't? Rudy was aware of Francis's shortcomings, he just didn't know how to improve on them. Four years (for RUDY and Francis together)! Come on man!"
Oh, now you need two years of JVG and McGrady? I said that Van Gundy's employment situation should not be reconsidered until the end of the season. There is a not-so-subtle difference between "Fire Da Bum" and "Man, how can McGrady ever be part of a 69-point performance? The offense sure is 'Van Gundying' it again."
Second year for JVG. But FIRST year for JVG/McGrady. I think you knew that...not sure you were joking.
Get your facts straight, bud. I have always been a Rockets fan first on foremost and I always will be. I always want what is best for the Rockets and firing Rudy wasn't that. He is one of the better coaches in the NBA on many levels and those in the NBA know support that emphatically. JVG is a good coach albeit I dislike the man but he is not as good as Rudy. You can disagree all you want but you don't have any facts to prove it like championships and gold medals. If the Rockets could improve by firing Rudy I would have been all for it. I would have accepted Larry Brown as at least not a step down. But JVG is clearly a step down. As for Francis I have never been a Francis can do no wrong person. I saw things in the kid but made me think this Kid will great but I also saw things that made we want to strangle him. But nobody was taking that offer. THe kid flat out annoyed me at times and I hated his showboating and skipping up the court antics. I thought he wasn't a good fit for the Rockets and we would be better served with another. Again whatever is best for the Rockets is what I want. Soif we could have traded him for a Bibby or a Kidd or even Andre Miller or Nash at times. But it doesn't change the fact that the kid was amazing and he is and will be a talent in this league for a long time in spite of what you think. My point is that JVG managed to make him look worst as well as the Rockets. And not that we shouldn't trade him for someone better. JVG took a tough situation and made it worst. That's my point! Of course you will argue but we made the playoffs. Of course we made the playoffs we were a much better team than last year and Utah and Phoenix were completely dismantled from there playoff years. And even then we barely made it. We should have made the playoffs easily we were much better with a much improved Yao. Hell, we almost made the playoffs with a much lesser team and we would have only Rudy wasn't there to finish. And now we have 2 of the premier players in the league and some good role players anything less than second round is a failure. I tell you what, I will even admit I was wrong about JVG if we win plus 55 games and make it past the second Round. Will you acknowledge JVG sucks if we don't make it out of the first round? I don't think so. But if that happens he needs to go. We have a chance to be champions again. and we need someone to instill that heart and belief in this team. And if JVG can do that I am all for it. Like I said I am always for what is best for the Rockets, always! If JVG can do the job (I doubt it) I will be happy. But if he can't then can the man, kick him to the curb. And don't rationalize why he deserves another chance. If the Rockets don't make it past the first round and you are not willing or able to acknowledge that JVG sucks then you are the one that needs to move on! Move on!
No prob. I'll take that. This is for edc too.... Think about this... Lets say that we win *only* 50 games. And we *only* make it to 7 games of the first round and LOSE (egads!). I don't think the coach will be fired. I know that edc will hate that. But it's likley that JVG will be given another chance. We'll be so caught up in the fact we went 7 that it will be enough. Now, if we MAKE it to the 2nd round, that will be even more reason to allow JVG to coach his 3rd year (even a 1-4 loss). I know, I know...edc wants 6 games (at least 4-2 serise loss). But JVG will get another chance next year even if we go 7 games in the first, much less a 4-2 second rounder loss. Now, to me, this is a bad scenario. Because most people here have higher expectaions THIS YEAR. I don't. Not this year. But next year? I feel we can make it to the WCF *next year* (and possibly the FINALS). Now, if we miss the play-offs THIS YEAR! Yikes! Then, yes. JVG sucks! Then edc can give Phil a call. By the way....regarding your post above....If we get 55+ wins and make it past the second round THIS YEAR! Wow! That's means a contract extension for JVG. And that would exceed even my expectations!
while i would be inclined to say the west was deeper last year than in 2001, who cares what the division was like? you play division and conference opponents 4 times a year each so the west is all that matters, not the midwest. in fact, since we're part of the midwest, we play the pacific more. and in 2001, the west had 7 teams win 50 games, which the west did not do last year. the 8th seed had 47 wins and us, the 9th seed, had 45, the best ever to not make it. the west last year was not that top heavy. deeper, probably, better, debatable. did we have more talent last year, yes. and we still won the same amount. of course we only won 43 the year before which shows just how much the 2001 team overachieved.
It should also be noted that the year we won 45 games was prezone, and they called all handchecks as fouls. Steve and Cat dominated because of that rule. Then, the zone was implemented and it all went to hell. If the zone existed back in 2000-2001, there is no way we would have won so many games. It's a different era, there's little point of comparing the two.
Sorry, but no. In the NBA "know", Rudy is regarded as a great motivator for veterans and his loose style of coaching makes him the apotheosis of the "player's coach". As for Xs and Os, strategy-wise he is viewed as....well, to be blunt, quite clueless. In other words, he just lets his players do their "thang". And when you have players like Olajuwan, who is a top 5 player of ALL TIME, or seasoned veterans like Drexler, you win. On the other hand when you have players like Francis, Mobley and Moochie, who's "thang" is dribble dribble dribble, your screwed. In fact, whilest you keep arguing how much JVG forsaked Francis' game, i would counter with how much he improved Mobley. Mobely played much more under control last year. Became a 3pt specialist, and was our best perimeter defender. Also, JVG seemed to have salvaged what little was left of Cato's game. Cato played with the motivation and intensity that i have not seen in......well probably ever. He even admitting in the beginning of the year that JVG was responsible for his pickup. And look at him now in Orlando.... I'm afraid he hath fallen back to the Dark side without the the guide of Obi won van Gundy. I guess both Mobley and Cato were salvagable, whilst the dark forces hath claimed Stevie beyond reconcile. In conclusion, I love Jeff van Grumpy.
